STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Trump administration officials say nobody is above the law, which is why they say the FBI arrested a Wisconsin judge. They accused Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Hannah Dugan of ushering a person without legal status out of a side exit of her courtroom to evade immigration agents who wanted to arrest him. The man was charged with domestic violence at the time. That's why he was in court. Dugan has been released until her next court hearing, but hundreds of protesters have been demonstrating outside the FBI building in Milwaukee. And one of them is on the line - Ryan Clancy, who is a Democratic member of the state assembly. Mr. Clancy, welcome to the program.
RYAN CLANCY: Steve, thanks so much for having me and covering this.
INSKEEP: Granting that you're not a witness - you're gathering information from the media or wherever, like the rest of us - do you agree on the basic facts of what seems to have happened here, that there's a Mexican migrant in her court, that ICE agents ask for him, that Judge Dugan gets upset about this and lets him out the side door?
CLANCY: I think some of those facts are in dispute. And I think there's a significant difference here between an administrative warrant, which is what ICE had and admitted that they have in their complaint, which is essentially an internal document, and an actual warrant signed by an actual judge. And I'm very grateful that Judge Dugan recognized the difference and acted accordingly. She just stood up for our community here.
INSKEEP: Oh, now, this is very interesting because you could imagine the judge saying - the -someone saying, well, the judge has an obligation to cooperate with the law enforcement authorities, the federal authorities who appear in front of her. But you're saying that - you're arguing that they may have had less than full authority to demand full cooperation from the judge?
CLANCY: Absolutely. They did not have a - yeah, a real warrant signed by a real judge. I mean, essentially, an administrative warrant from ICE is a piece of paper that they produce themselves saying they can do what they want. It doesn't have the same power as an actual warrant does. Yeah. And Judge Dugan, as a judge herself, apparently realized that and did what I hope any of us would do, which is standing up for members of our community who are being targeted by the Trump regime.
INSKEEP: Didn't work out for him. I mean, the authorities chased the guy down after he went out the side door, and they arrested him anyway.
CLANCY: They did. And that is a - it has a really profound and negative chilling effect. Courthouses - and courtrooms specifically - have been protected spaces, just like operating rooms, classrooms. You don't want law enforcement. You don't want ICE specifically operating without impunity in those areas. And my concern here - and we've already started to see this - is that people who would normally be willingly participating in the justice system are now, you know, going to think twice if they think that, you know, showing up either as a defendant or a witness may lead to their own arrest.
INSKEEP: Can you tell me, though, what ICE should have done? They have this federal policy to deport people. That is also the law - that people who are not here legally should not be here illegally. They are supposed to get this guy. What should they have done? Should they have just left him in the courthouse? Should they have ignored him, tried to find him somewhere else? What should they have done?
CLANCY: Certainly. I mean, I do not think that ICE should be deporting people at all. We have done without ICE for many years. And even prior to that, there's been a longstanding tradition, for good reason, of not going into those safe, protected spaces. So we can debate whether or not ICE should be deporting people at all. They should not - ICE should be abolished. That said, they absolutely should not be going into courtrooms. That has a chilling effect, both on people that are there to participate and also elected and appointed officials like judges, who are clearly being targeted by this administration as well.
INSKEEP: I want to make sure that I understand what you're telling me. You're not saying ICE should not be deporting people from courts, which is a point of view. You're saying ICE should not be deporting people - just anybody should come here for any reason, and nobody should enforce the law?
CLANCY: That's a larger issue. I mean, certainly, we do not have significant legal pathways for folks who want to do the right thing and want to be here and - you know, and join our American society in the right way. And it is frustrating for people to hear, you know, oh, they should be doing it the right way. There are many, many people who are integrated into our communities, who are part of our communities, who are trying to do the right thing and are trying to get legal status, despite the fact that we make it really difficult at the federal level. We should not be deporting those people, either.
INSKEEP: OK.
CLANCY: And to be very clear, ICE should not exist. ICE should be abolished.
INSKEEP: Understand your point of view there. Getting back to the judge now, are you concerned about where this is going, with the judge being arrested, given these circumstances?
CLANCY: Absolutely. And this is incredibly unprecedented. A functioning democracy does not arrest sitting judges for doing their job, not for doing anything criminal or illegal. And they certainly don't, you know, handcuff them and then perp walk them in front of cameras. The goal here clearly is a chilling effect. It's to stop people from, you know, doing their jobs and standing up for a community when they are standing up to the Trump regime.
INSKEEP: Ryan Clancy is a Wisconsin state representative, member of the Democratic Party Assembly District 19, which includes part of Milwaukee. Thanks so much.
CLANCY: Thank you, Steve. Appreciate you.
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