STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Staffing changes at the Pentagon include at least two moves that affect what troops can or cannot do in combat. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth fired some of the Pentagon's judge advocates general - or JAGS. They're the lawyers who keep the military in check and operating within the laws of armed conflict. Hegseth is also cutting positions and offices at the Pentagon that are focused on reducing harm to civilians during combat operations. Retired Army General Joseph Votel has a different view of those jobs.
JOSEPH VOTEL: I've seen the heartbreaking impact of where things have gone wrong. If you cause so many civilian casualties and you cause so much civilian harm here, it can actually undermine the mission that the military has been sent in to do.
INSKEEP: Votel served as head of the U.S. Central Command during President Trump's first term. Leila Fadel spoke with him about why two Pentagon groups were created - the Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Office and the Civilian Protection Center.
VOTEL: These particular offices were initiated during the first Trump administration, particularly during our campaign against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, where we were confronting on a day-to-day basis ISIS fighters who were intermingled and frequently used the civilian population as shields as we were going through this. So it was a significant challenge that we were having operationally.
LEILA FADEL, BYLINE: I worked in Iraq for a long time, and I saw the damage done to the war of hearts and minds when a civilian was killed. I mean, what is the importance, when it comes to combat operations, to make sure you're protecting civilian life when a war is going on?
VOTEL: Well, I think the most important aspect is that these efforts, I think, can help us actually add precision to our military lethality. The new administration has talked a lot about this, and I certainly agree with that. You know, you don't necessarily have to kill civilians to cause harm against civilians. Removing important infrastructure and other aspects like that certainly can have an impact.
FADEL: But on the basic level, doesn't it matter that the U.S. military is seen as a military that protects civilian life, even when you're fighting an enemy?
VOTEL: Certainly, it does. I mean, you know, the law of armed conflict is a foundational underpinning to, you know, the training of our officer and noncommissioned officer leaders. And we recognize that we have a responsibility to protect innocents and to conduct our operations in accordance with the international norms, standards and laws. And I think that this effort that is focused on civilian harm mitigation, I think it helps enhance that. I don't think this is designed to be more constricting on commanders. I think it's really designed to be more informative in helping us be a better educated and smarter force.
FADEL: When you heard these positions that offices were being cut, what was your first reaction?
VOTEL: Obviously, this is the area that I've paid some attention to, largely because of my own experience. So...
FADEL: Yeah, I mean, you were among the first troops into Afghanistan in 2001, and you've commanded troops there and in Iraq.
VOTEL: Right, so I've had - and I've dealt with this problem quite often as a CENTCOM commander. This was a daily challenge for us in places like Iraq and Syria and Afghanistan. So it isn't something that you take lightly. So, again, these are difficult decisions that the department is making about where they put their resources.
FADEL: Right.
VOTEL: I don't want to minimize that. But in my view, I think the benefit to be gained by supporting these positions, I think it outweighs the movement of resources to other places.
FADEL: If you could just say a little bit more about why it's a net benefit. I mean, when you think about resources and allocating resources to this, how important is it to the state admission?
VOTEL: Yeah, I think there's three big areas where this can really help. One is in this human shielding aspect that we've talked about. Related to that is understanding the information environment around that and how we can reduce the disinformation and the misuse of information. The new administration, I think, correctly has embraced things like artificial intelligence and reaching out to advanced technologies. These are capabilities that can actually help in this particular area. I think we've seen some examples of that with the Israelis trying to use artificial intelligence to try to be more precise in the things that they are doing and did.
FADEL: But it's a very flaw - I mean, there's been a lot of criticism, too, that there's a targeting system that ends up possibly getting people caught in the mix that aren't actually Hamas.
VOTEL: That's always a possibility in these...
FADEL: Right.
VOTEL: ...Operations. And I'm the first to tell you, as somebody who did this, is that we did make mistakes. It's not clean. It's going to be difficult, but it shouldn't diminish our desire to try to mitigate that as much as we possibly can.
FADEL: Retired U.S. Army General Joseph Votel. He served as head of U.S. Central Command. Thank you so much for your time and your insights.
VOTEL: OK, thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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