SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
Of course, yesterday, President Trump met with Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy just after the third anniversary of the Russian invasion of his country and told him...
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You've allowed yourself...
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: From the very...
TRUMP: ...To be in a very a bad position...
ZELENSKYY: From the very beginning of the war...
TRUMP: ...And he happens to be right about it.
ZELENSKYY: From the very beginning of the war...
TRUMP: You're not in a good position.
ZELENSKYY: ...I was...
TRUMP: You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards.
ZELENSKYY: I'm not playing cards.
TRUMP: But right now, you don't...
ZELENSKYY: I'm very serious...
TRUMP: No, you're playing cards.
ZELENSKYY: ...Mr. President.
TRUMP: You're playing cards.
ZELENSKYY: I'm very serious.
TRUMP: You're gambling...
ZELENSKYY: I'm the president in a war.
TRUMP: ...With the lives of millions of people.
ZELENSKYY: You think...
TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
SIMON: John Bolton joins us now. Mr. Bolton was ambassador to the United Nations during the George W. Bush administration. He was President Trump's national security adviser for a year and a half during his first term. They did not have a friendly party. Ambassador Bolton, thank you for joining us.
JOHN BOLTON: Glad to be with you. Thanks for having me.
SIMON: What's your reaction to that scene?
BOLTON: Well, it was a disaster for the United States of America. It showed a president who was literally mouthing Russian propaganda - as he has for the past several weeks - the idea that somehow Ukraine's act of self-defense threatens World War III. It was a very sad day, not just for Ukraine, but really for the United States to see the president and the vice president confirming what was already apparent in prior statements. They have now shifted the American view on the war in Ukraine 180 degrees. They are on Russia's side.
SIMON: That's an extraordinary statement, Mr. Ambassador. And what do you think about the argument - and it's been advanced by a few people in the Trump administration - that the United States has to get along with Russia, particularly as the power of China increases?
BOLTON: Well, that's an interesting thought since what's also increasing is a Russia-China axis that's been underway for some time, not perfectly formed yet, but well on the way that Russia is fully involved in selling more oil and gas to China, laundering its sanctioned financial assets through the opaque Chinese financial system during the past three years of sanctions. It'd be one thing to get along. It's another thing to sanction, to approve, really, of unprovoked military aggression, which is what Russia committed against Ukraine and to send a signal elsewhere in the world, particularly to China that the United States is not willing to follow its own interests, which we obviously have on the continent of Europe to have peace and stability there when those interests are threatened. If I were in Taiwan, I would be very worried by what I see.
SIMON: What about President Trump's suggestion that if Europe wants to defend Ukraine, they can do it without U.S. assistance?
BOLTON: Yeah. You know, it turns out that since 1945, almost everybody in the United States has believed that peace and stability on the European continent are in America's interest. It denies territory to our adversaries. It enhances political, economic, cultural, historical, family ties between the United States and Europe. And aggression that goes unchecked in Europe threatens those interests. So, yes, Europe has an interest. Yes, Europe has not done enough, but the answer to that is not to say we don't have an interest.
People may have noticed that since the 18th century, the time it takes to launch weapons of destruction from Europe to America has considerably diminished. It's true they're across the Atlantic Ocean, but the oceans are less a barrier today than they are another route to attack. We are the global power. We have interests everywhere. And for the protection, the preservation of our system here at home, we need to defend those global interests.
SIMON: You, I gather, said in an interview yesterday that Secretary of State Rubio and National Security Adviser Michael Waltz - said of them, quote, "this is the point you resign." What would that accomplish?
BOLTON: Well, I think it's a very difficult decision. I had to reach it myself. I know others who have. I don't make the point to make life difficult for them, but if they believe anything like what they have said over many years, where both of them have established really outstanding reputations for understanding what protection of American interest around the world requires. If they still believe those principles, what Trump did yesterday completely violated them. And at some point in politics, principles should triumph.
SIMON: Is there Republican opposition to President Trump on Ukraine?
BOLTON: I think there's a very substantial opposition. I think a lot of it is intimidated. I think that's obviously unfortunate, but I don't think anybody should think that what's been happening over the past several weeks is going to go unchallenged. It's disappointing to me we haven't had more vocal opposition from people in Congress who I know think these are bad ideas. But, you know, politics is a complex game. My first election was supporting Barry Goldwater in 1964. People may remember Goldwater was defeated. But it didn't stop me then, and it's not going to stop me now.
SIMON: Mr. Ambassador, is President Trump just heeding the will of the American people and avoiding involving the United States in foreign wars?
BOLTON: No, I don't think so. I don't think that's what the people voted for at all. I think Trump's supporters believe that. But this particular foreign war fits the paradigm of no American troops involved and protecting interests that we have very much in Eastern and Central Europe and elsewhere along the Russian periphery. So I think that while his efforts to denigrate Ukraine have certainly had an effect on public opinion, I still don't believe that's where the majority lies.
SIMON: What about the Russian argument that the U.S. wouldn't accept a hostile power on their border - they shouldn't have to either?
BOLTON: You know, it's not a hostile power on their border. Ukraine didn't attack Russia. It simply expressed the desire to be free and independent. That ought to resonate with Americans, you know?
SIMON: Well, an adversarial power that's well-armed. Let's put it that way.
BOLTON: So is Finland. So are most of the powers that border Russia based on their historical experience of being oppressed by Russia in - during the Cold War period after 1945. Let's be clear - the NATO alliance has never attacked anybody.
SIMON: I have to ask you. President Trump, of course, withdrew your Secret Service protection. How do you feel?
BOLTON: Well, it was an act of retribution. It wasn't just mine, of course. He retracted former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo's, former Secretary of Defense Mark Esper, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley. Each in our own way committed the venal sin of disagreeing with Donald Trump, and that is the retribution he's exacting.
SIMON: I have to ask you, Mr. Ambassador, if you think this policy is going to change. President Trump is not necessarily known for that.
BOLTON: I'm sorry, which policy? On Ukraine or our...
SIMON: Oh, Ukraine or - not your security protection, which I...
BOLTON: No, I don't think so. Look, to Trump, everything is personal. He thinks he's friends with Vladimir Putin. I happen to believe, having first met Putin in October of 2001, that Putin is extremely cold-blooded. He thinks he can manipulate Trump - and he is. On the other hand, Trump doesn't like Zelenskyy. He hasn't liked him since the so-called perfect phone call. He doesn't like him now. That's what you're seeing playing out. That's the level of Donald Trump's understanding of international affairs.
SIMON: Former U.S. national security adviser John Bolton. Mr. Ambassador, thanks so much for joining us.
BOLTON: Well, thanks for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
