DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. NBC's "Saturday Night Live" is celebrating its 50th anniversary this weekend with a triple header of special events. Tonight, Peacock streams a live music concert, featuring scheduled performances by everyone from Bad Bunny and David Byrne to Lady Gaga and The Roots. On Saturday, in its regular late-night slot on NBC, "SNL" repeats the first-ever episode of "Saturday Night Live," hosted by George Carlin and introducing the original not-for-primetime players - John Belushi, Gilda Radner, Dan Aykroyd, Chevy Chase, Jane Curtin, Laraine Newman and Garrett Morris. And on Sunday, NBC presents a three-hour live anniversary special, preceded by an additional hour on the red carpet.
Today on FRESH AIR, we're noting that anniversary by replaying interviews with some of the performers and writers who were there at or near the start when producer Lorne Michaels created and shaped the show's first five seasons. After a five-year hiatus, Michaels returned and has been there ever since, presiding over many decades of cast changes, musical trends and political shifts. Even though Michaels and NBC are celebrating the 50th anniversary of "SNL" this weekend, the very first episode, then called "NBC's Saturday Night," actually premiered on October 11, 1975. Michaels had selected a cutting-edge counterculture comic as the show's host, but the comedian, George Carlin, suggested he do only the first one, making room for guest hosts from then on.
Michaels agreed, establishing a template that still works, while Carlin established another one, taking the stage at Studio 8H to deliver an opening monologue.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
GEORGE CARLIN: Talk about a live show. Wow. Nice to see you. Welcome, and thanks for joining us live. Kind of glad that we're on at night so that we're not competing with all the football and baseball games. So many, man. All the time. And this is the time of year when there's both, you know? Football's kind of nice. They changed it a little bit. They moved the hash marks in. Guys found them and smoked them anyway.
(LAUGHTER)
BIANCULLI: One other noteworthy element from that first show, still part of the format 50 years later, was a TV news parody called Weekend Update. Chevy Chase was the first Update anchor and, thanks to that showcase, the first star to emerge from "SNL." It helped that he started most Updates with the opening line, "I'm Chevy Chase, and you're not." But the jokes he read, written by original writer Alan Zweibel and others, helped too.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
CHEVY CHASE: The Post Office announced today - just a second. I lost my place. Oh, the Post Office announced today that it is going to issue a stamp commemorating prostitution in the United States. It's a 10-cent stamp, but if you want to lick it, it's a quarter.
(LAUGHTER)
BIANCULLI: On today's show, we'll hear from Alan Zweibel and cast member Jon Lovitz, and also from Al Franken, a writer and performer who went from the halls of "Saturday Night Live" to the corridors of the U.S. Senate. But let's start with an interview Terry Gross conducted in 2004 with Dan Aykroyd, who broke out on the show impersonating Julia Child and Tom Snyder, co-anchoring Weekend Update after Chevy Chase left, and introducing a range of unforgettable characters, including the outer-space alien Beldar Conehead, one of the wild and crazy guys opposite Steve Martin, and most famously, Elwood Blues, one of the musical, energetic Blues Brothers alongside John Belushi. Terry asked Dan Aykroyd about his love of music and more.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS: What were the first records you bought? Can you remember?
DAN AYKROYD: Well, the first records, of course, were, you know, The Beatles and The Stones. And then I think the seminal record for me was the "East-West" record that Paul Butterfield did in the late '60s with Elvin Bishop and Michael Bloomfield. And from then on, I began to go out and try to search the bins in the record stores for blues artists and then started listening to John Lee Hooker. And we had a tremendous booking agent in Ottawa, Canada, where I grew up. That's the capital of that great, great nation. And my parents worked for the government up there, and I was kind of a son of government workers up there.
And there was a club called Le Hibou, which was right on Sussex Drive near where the prime minister lives. And we had a booker there named Harvey Glatt. And he brought in all of the great blues' stars of the age, so that as a teenager, I jammed behind Muddy Waters when S.P. Leary refused to take the drum kit. And he said, "Is anybody out there that's a drummer?" And I walked up, and I started to play and Muddy turns to me and he goes, "keep that beat going, boy. You make Muddy feel good." I mean, this was part of my early exposure. And then I saw Paul Butterfield and Charlie Musselwhite and, you know, all these great players.
And it was, I guess, just through the insight of this guy who was, you know, booking for the college crowd up there and then listening to the Black radio stations in Boston and Detroit and New York. This was - you know, these were sort of all part of my exposures, I guess.
GROSS: So what was in your parents' record collection? What did they listen to? And how did that affect what you liked or didn't like?
AYKROYD: Well, my dad used to pore over the newspapers and look for record collections that were used. So he would go and he'd see that some guy in Ottawa or Hull or where we were living there would be selling a hundred records. And he'd just go out and buy them all. So we were listening to anything from Glenn Miller to Mario Lanza, lots of Broadway soundtracks and stuff. But I think my father really influenced me when he started to get into the Jack Hylton, Ray Noble, Freddy Gardner, English swing band music. That was really something because, you know, the value of horns was there.
And then later as I started to buy, of course, it was The Beatles and The Stones and The Animals, and then the Paul Butterfield record. But my dad was into the swing band music, as many people were in Canada at that time.
GROSS: Now, I read about you that you had a pretty strict Catholic upbringing, that you went to Catholic school. Did...
AYKROYD: Seminary.
GROSS: Seminary? Whoa, OK.
AYKROYD: Mm-hmm.
GROSS: So you're growing up in Canada. You're going to a seminary and listening to blues and rock 'n' roll and rhythm and blues.
AYKROYD: And seeing guys on stage in my high school imitating Mick Jagger...
GROSS: OK.
AYKROYD: ...Imitating The Animals.
GROSS: OK. That's where I'm heading. Were you - did you - long before you became part of the Blues Brothers and you developed this kind of alter ego for yourself, did you have a pose when you were in high school? Did you want to be Black? Did you want to be a blues musician? Did you want to be somebody who you weren't and kind of take on that pose in real life?
AYKROYD: Sure. I wanted to be Paul Butterfield and Charlie Musselwhite, and I used to walk around in a long trench coat, a long brown trench coat with shades, and I'd slick my hair back. And I'd try to find any little band up in the bars, up in the Gatineau and up in Ottawa and Hull and where I was living. And I would get on stage with them, and they'd be country bands. And I would turn to them and say, well, can you do it like this? And I would kind of show them a basic, you know, eight-, 10-, 12-bar blues pattern, and then we'd just take off from there. And, of course, I was posing as Paul Butterfield. Yeah, absolutely.
GROSS: And...
AYKROYD: Then my friend Gary O'Dwyer (ph), who was now a school principal up in Cobourg, Ontario - he was pretending to be Eric Burdon. And I had - you know, the math whiz in class in grade 11 was pretending to be Mick Jagger. So everybody was posing, and it was all based on rock 'n' roll and music and blues then, all of it.
GROSS: Did you sing then? Or - I know you played drums...
AYKROYD: I played harp...
GROSS: ...And harmonica.
AYKROYD: ...Mostly and sang. Yeah. The drumming was sporadic, but, you know, I filled in for bands now and again when I was growing up.
GROSS: How did you and Belushi start the whole Blues Brothers routine?
AYKROYD: In 1973, John came up to Canada to recruit for the "National Lampoon Radio Hour." And I was in "Second City" with Gilda Radner and with John Candy. And John came in to Toronto, and he joined us on the set of the Second City stage, and we did an improv set. And then we went back to my very famous speakeasy called the 505, which opened after 1 o'clock after the Liquor Control Board of Ontario closed most of the bars in the province. We had a bar at the corner of Queen and River at 505 Queen Street. And all the streetcar drivers and cops from, like, outlying regions and waiters and waitresses and dancers would come to drink.
And I had a record on by the Downchild Blues Band out of Toronto, Donnie Walsh, an incredible seminal artist out of Canada. And John and I were listening to it, and John said, what is this? This is a great record. Oh, it's just a local blues band. Blues, huh? Oh, I'm from Chicago. I hear the blue now and again, but I'm into heavy metal, he says. I said, well, John, you show me heavy metal, and I'll show you the blues. So we started to kind of talk about it and listen.
And Howard Shore was there that night. He's, of course, the great Oscar-winning composer of the "Lord Of The Rings" trilogy music. He was the original musical director on "Saturday Night Live," and he was in Toronto at that time and had dropped by the bar. And he said, yeah, you guys should start a band, and you could call it The Blues Brothers. And we just went, bink, bink. And we started to correspond.
I didn't go back to New York with John. He'd managed to get Gilda to go back with him, but we kept in touch on the phone. And we started to look at material and develop material, and we did our first gig in New York in the Lone Star Cafe. And our backup band was Willie Nelson with Mickey Raphael, one of the greatest harmonica players ever. And Willie understood what we were trying to do, like so many that came along and joined us. They understood that, OK, these guys aren't the greatest musicians or singers or dancers, but what they are are great front men, and they love and respect the music.
So the hat and glasses are from the John Lee Hooker album "House Of The Blues." He wears those shades and that hat on the cover there. The suits - the black jacket and thin tie and white shirts - were because, you know, a lot of artists in the '60s, kind of, you know, were progressive and maybe were getting in trouble with the law. Like, Lenny Bruce wanted to look straight. And so it was kind of trying to get that IRS look together to kind of fool the straights was where that came from.
BIANCULLI: Dan Aykroyd, speaking to Terry Gross in 2004. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 interview with Dan Aykroyd, the first of our archive interviews celebrating the 50th anniversary of "Saturday Night Live." He told Terry he actually had done real TV commercials before joining "Saturday Night Live."
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
AYKROYD: One of my first jobs in broadcasting was working for Citytv in Toronto, which was this whole new concept in urban television that really - basically, today, your news desk - your news desks across America - Channel 7, 4, 2, wherever you want to be in network - with the graphics and the presence - the seemingly sort of active presence of the newscaster, this is from Moses Znaimer's Citytv. He basically changed the whole format and the whole delivery of news in North America. And I worked for his station. I was a game show announcer. And I also did the - you know, the shock box announcing. So I actually had to do that fast rap stuff for - you know, for, you know, car companies and beer companies and all that. So, sure, I was actually doing it professionally when I first started out. I was hired by none other than Ivan Reitman, who - we went on to do the "Ghostbusters" thing together.
GROSS: Wow. So you were doing the real thing before you did the parodies.
AYKROYD: I was, yeah. I was a mailman in Toronto when I first moved there. I knew I wanted to go to Toronto to work with Lorne Michaels again. I had gone there to do a special with him when I was 19, went back to Carleton University, couldn't concentrate - you know, I had to be in show business - dropped out of school, much to the chagrin of my parents. I got a job driving mail truck in Toronto, and then I shifted to the broadcasting. And, yeah, I was a shot box announcer for about a year there with Citytv and hired by Ivan Reitman and recommended by Lorne. Lorne said, you should hire this kid. So Lorne Michaels has been instrumental in my career from, you know, basically age 17.
GROSS: Let me ask about one of the parody commercials you did. And this is a terrific video compilation of your best - or some of your best sketches from "Saturday Night Live." And this is the one for the Bass-O-Matic. It's, like, a blender that turns fish into a delicious shake (laughter).
AYKROYD: I think people remember. Yeah.
GROSS: Tell me how you came up with this...
AYKROYD: Well, my...
GROSS: ...And if it relates to a real ad that you ever did.
AYKROYD: Oh, yeah. No, no, my aunt, the late Helene Gougeon - she's - she was a lovely woman, my mother's sister. She was, in fact, the Julia Child of Canada.
GROSS: Really?
AYKROYD: She had - yep. She had a television show and a cuisine shop in Montreal during the '60s. And she - I went to her house for lunch, and she was a, you know, master gourmet chef, and she was very well known for - she was on the network, the TV up there. And she said she was making a fish soup, and I saw she dropped the whole fish into the blender.
GROSS: (Laughter).
AYKROYD: I - with the bones and everything, you know? She said, oh, no, don't worry. The bones - you pick the bones out like you were eating a fillet. Don't worry about it. And I never forgot that. And then, you know, many years later, I was sitting with Paul Simon and Lorne Michaels and Elaine (ph), and Chevy and John and I were there. Belushi, Paul Simon, me, Lorne and Chevy. And we're sitting there. And, you know - and I - you know, we were just kind of laughing over things, and I was thinking about that. And, you know, we were eating a meal, and I thought, yeah, I got this idea for, you know, a scene - you know, Bass-O-Matic. And when I said that, Paul Simon, you know, who's probably one of the most brilliant people ever in entertainment, he started to really laugh. And it was - it's hard to get Paul to laugh, you know, because he's so intellectual, so smart. You know, you got to be at a certain level. When he started to snort, I said, man, I got something if I can make Paul laugh this easy. And I went away, and I wrote the scene based upon that night and my aunt's real experience with the fish in a blender.
And I remember a woman wrote me a letter. She was very upset that I would change the molecular state of the fish from solid to liquid on - you know, on television. She was really, really upset about that. And I wrote her back, and I said, well, you know, this was actually the way that my aunt made fish soup.
GROSS: Well, let's hear Dan Aykroyd advertising the Bass-O-Matic on "Saturday Night Live."
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
AYKROYD: How many times has this happened to you? You have a bass. You're trying to find an exciting new way to prepare it for dinner. You could scale the bass, remove the bass' tail, head and bones and serve the fish as you would any other fish dinner. But why bother, now that you can use Ronco's amazing new kitchen tool, the Super Bass-O-Matic 76?
(LAUGHTER)
AYKROYD: Yes, fish eaters, the days of troublesome scaling, cutting and gutting are over because Super Bass-O-Matic 76 is the tool that lets you use the whole bass with no fish waste, without scaling, cutting or gutting. Here's how it works. Catch a bass. Remove the hook and drop the bass. That's the whole bass into the Super Bass-O-Matic 76. Now adjust the control dial so that that bass is blended just the way you like it.
(SOUNDBITE OF BLENDER WHIRRING)
AYKROYD: Yes, it's just that simple.
(LAUGHTER)
BIANCULLI: Dan Aykroyd spoke to Terry Gross in 2004. One of the original writers on "Saturday Night Live" was Alan Zweibel. In 1989, he told Terry about how he collaborated with Gilda Radner on several of her characters. Together, they wrote such still memorable comic creations as Emily Litella and Roseanne Roseannadanna.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
ALAN ZWEIBEL: She was a great writer, undisciplined in that she wouldn't sit down at a typewriter and stay up all night, you know. However, whenever we would write together, it was usually by virtue of me taking a legal pad and a pen, and the two of us go into a restaurant. And I would, basically, interview her on whatever we were going to do that week, whether it was Roseanne Roseannadanna, Emily Litella, any of the other things that I'd written for her. I'd say, OK, how do you feel about this? So what would Roseanne say about that?
GROSS: So you cocreated the Emily Litella character with her?
ZWEIBEL: That was - yeah. That was based on a character that was a nanny that was very, very important in Gilda's upbringing. Her name was Dibby - and spoke like that. The character first appeared in a sketch that either Franken and Davis wrote or Rosie Shuster and wasn't named as such. And then we started using it more and more. Then ultimately, Gilda and I hooked into it and put her in Weekend Update, and the character evolved into what it was.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
GILDA RADNER: (As Emily Litella) Tonight's commentary is very important because I hear that President Ford wants to make Puerto Rico a steak.
(LAUGHTER)
RADNER: (As Emily Litella) Now, why does he have to make them a steak? I didn't think those people even liked meat. Now, let me...
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
RADNER: (As Emily Litella) What's all this fuss I keep hearing about violins on television?
(LAUGHTER)
RADNER: (As Emily Litella) Now, why don't parents want their children to see violins on television? I say there should be more violins on television and less game shows. It's terrible the way things...
CHASE: Miss Litella....
RADNER: What? What?
CHASE: Miss Litella, that was violence on television - not violins - violence.
RADNER: (As Emily Litella) Oh. Well, that's different.
CHASE: Yes.
RADNER: (As Emily Litella) Never mind.
(APPLAUSE)
GROSS: Can you describe the creation of the Roseanne Roseannadanna character?
ZWEIBEL: Well, there was once a sketch called Hire The Incompetent that I believe Rosie Shuster wrote, where Gilda appeared with that wig. And Hire The Incompetent were - was interviews with three people who were clearly too incompetent to have any job anywhere. It was successful. And months later, I was having dinner with Gilda, and I said, you know, remember that character? I said, why don't we give her a name, put her in Weekend Update, and why not give her - you know, let her be a consumer advocate? Not unlike - and there was a local ABC newswoman called Rose Ann Scamardella in New York at the time - I said, not unlike Rose Ann Scamardella. And Gilda said, well, OK, can we call her Roseanne Roseannadanna? And I said, why? And what Gilda had done - remember that song "The Name Game"? You know, Johnny, Johnny, bo-bohnny (ph).
GROSS: Yeah.
ZWEIBEL: Gilda started singing it. And if you sing it with the name Roseanne, somewhere in there, Roseanne Roseannadanna comes out. And I go, OK, fine, let's name her that. So every week, she would get a letter from a Richard Feder from Fort Lee, New Jersey, who's my brother-in-law. He was my best friend growing up. Then he married my sister, and it was my way of saying hi to him every week. So we made him the letter writer. And basically, we lapsed into a formula where we would take a celebrity, and we would take something topical. And we would put the two together and come up with sweat balls at the end of Dr. Joyce Brothers' nose or nasal hairs from Bo Derek, or whatever we did.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
RADNER: (As Roseanne Roseannadanna) So what does she do? She opens her perfect little purse and takes out her perfect little Kleenex and dabs her perfect little face and then throws the perfect little Kleenex into a perfect little Tiffany trash can. But what this cutie didn't know was when she wiped up her nose, she didn't push back in this one little perfect little nose hair. It just stuck out there, and it was long, and it was black, and it was perfect. And I thought I was going to die.
(LAUGHTER)
RADNER: (As Roseanne Roseannadanna) Just between you and me - Roseanne Roseannadanna - I felt like yanking down two more hairs, braiding them and putting a bead at the end.
(LAUGHTER)
RADNER: (As Roseanne Roseannadanna) Then her nose would've looked like her hair. But I yelled, hey, Bo, shove that hair back up your nose. What you trying to do, make me sick?
JANE CURTIN: Roseanne...
RADNER: (As Roseanne Roseannadanna) You think you're so neat. Not cute (ph)...
(CROSSTALK)
CURTIN: Roseanne, Roseanne...
BIANCULLI: Alan Zweibel spoke to Terry Gross in 2004. After a break, we'll hear from SNL writer turned U.S. Senator Al Franken and cast member Jon Lovitz, and Justin Chang reviews a newly released movie that's actually more than 25 years old. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
JOHN BELUSHI: (Singing) Coming to you on a dusty road. Good loving - I got a truckload. And when you get it, you got something. So don't worry 'cause I'm coming.
DAN AYKROYD AND JOHN BELUSHI: (Singing) I'm a soul man. Ha, I'm a soul man. I'm a soul man.
BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. We're celebrating 50 years of "Saturday Night Live," featuring interviews with early cast members and writers. Al Franken was one of the show's original writers, along with his partner, Tom Davis. He worked as a writer and occasional performer during the show's first five years, then returned in 1985 as both writer and performer for another 10 years. Terry spoke with Al Franken in 1988, and she asked him about how he dealt with the network censors.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: What's your system of pushing for something when you're arguing with a censor or with a producer about your material? Do you make a strong case about why it's really not in bad taste - explain what the joke is?
AL FRANKEN: Yeah, you know, people think we really don't like the censors, that they're our enemies. And the fact is I spend more time with the censors at NBC than with, you know, almost anybody else other than our staff. So I know these guys real well. It's adversarial, but it's friendly, and we don't really pull anything off over on them. We just make our argument.
I lost a piece last year that I really cared about. It was called What's My Addiction? And it was a game show in which, you know, the celebrity panelists were Johnny Cash, Liza Minnelli and David Crosby, and the host was Betty Ford. And all the, you know, guests would come on, and the panelists would ask them questions like on What's My Line? And try to guess what their chemical dependency was.
And the point of the show was that all chemical dependency is the same thing, whether it's barbiturates or speed or alcohol, you know, street drugs or prescription drugs, or - it's all the same thing, and it all has very, very similar tragic consequences. And I was more proud of this piece than of any I had written that year. And they showed it on the air. It was - it went on the air once, and it went over great, and they decided not to run it in the repeat.
GROSS: Why not?
FRANKEN: Because it dealt with drugs, and it got laughs. And there is this prejudice against comedy, which is if you do comedy, therefore, it isn't serious. You know, they're just two separate things.
GROSS: But let me just ask you when a sketch of yours is killed, either before it airs or, in this case, it was killed...
FRANKEN: That was very unusual.
GROSS: It was killed for the rerun. Yeah.
FRANKEN: Yeah, that was unusual.
GROSS: What do you do? I mean, do you just accept it, or do you go in and make a big argument about it?
FRANKEN: Well, we're beginning to try to make an argument higher up. We're thinking maybe this is something General Electric will understand, that we're in competition with cable and "Saturday Night Live's" on at 11:30, and at least at one time, had a reputation of being on the cutting edge, and that some of the censorship that we've had this year and in the last couple of years has really been silly. We wrote a sketch called Jew, Not a Jew. It was a game show in which, you know, it'd be like - there'd be, like, a big board with - you know, and someone's picture would come up. And it'd be like "Family Feud," and there'd be two families, and Penny Marshall's face would come up on it.
GROSS: (Laughter).
FRANKEN: And you go, she was, you know, star of "Laverne & Shirley." Now a director. Married to "All In The Family's" Meathead one time. Penny Marshall, Jew or not a Jew?
GROSS: (Laughter).
FRANKEN: And then ding, ding, ding, ding, take it, Nofflers (ph). You know, she looks - she's from New York or something. She's got a big nose. We're going to say Jew. (Imitating buzzer). Sorry, Penny Marshall is Italian, of Italian descent. But anyway, the point was is that NBC - our censors said, no, you can't do this because some people will take it the wrong way. And we're just saying, well, yeah, but it's not intended to be anti - I'm Jewish. I wrote it. I'm Jewish. This is what we used to do at home. When we were sitting at home, we'd...
GROSS: Well, actually, it's...
FRANKEN: ...See Mel Ferrer on TV and go, you think he's a Jew? I don't know.
GROSS: (Laughter).
FRANKEN: And my dad would go, you know, Leslie Howard is Jewish, Alan. Really? Yes, he is.
GROSS: I think it's a preoccupation that a lot of Jewish people have trying to figure out who's Jewish and who isn't.
FRANKEN: Yeah.
GROSS: Yeah.
FRANKEN: So it's sort of a living - we made it into this game show (laughter).
GROSS: So that never got on the air?
FRANKEN: No, never got on the air. And it's just stupid, you know? I mean, I think at one point, they, like, asked some rabbi if it was OK to put it on or something.
GROSS: (Laughter) Taking it to the top.
FRANKEN: Yeah.
GROSS: You started on "Saturday Night Live," the first season it was on.
FRANKEN: Yeah.
GROSS: And you've been in and out of the show several times, right?
FRANKEN: Yeah. I - Tom and I have worked - we're called Lorne again. We've been there whenever...
GROSS: (Laughter).
FRANKEN: ...Lorne's there. Lorne again writers. And so we've been there from - we were there for the first five years, and now we've been here or there for the last three.
GROSS: First show this season that I saw you on "Saturday Night Live..."
FRANKEN: Yeah.
GROSS: ...You had revived the Al Franken Decade?
FRANKEN: Yeah.
GROSS: How did you first come up with it?
FRANKEN: Oh, the Al Franken - OK, basically, what happened was I was - in 1979, I was - at the end of 1979 - remember, the '70s was the Me Decade. And everybody was sort of saying, well, the Me Decade's over, what's the next decade going to be about? And there'd be some guy who would write a thing, My Turn, in Newsweek and he'd say, this is going to be the pull together generation revolving around how we use our energy resources. And then, at the bottom, it would say Ted Hudnut (ph) is an energy resource consultant. And I realized that everybody was saying basically that the '70s was the Me Decade, but the '80s is going to be about this thing that I'm involved with.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKEN: So I figured the - I'd just make it the Al Franken Decade.
GROSS: Al Franken, thanks a lot for talking with us.
FRANKEN: OK, well, thank you.
BIANCULLI: Al Franken, speaking to Terry Gross in 1988. And by the way, his Jew, Not a Jew sketch did eventually get on the air later that year with Tom Hanks playing the game show host.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
TOM HANKS: (As Bob Tompkins) Ten points. Ten points. OK, let's continue. Hands on buzzers.
(LAUGHTER)
HANKS: (As Bob Tompkins) Mayor of New York.
(SOUNDBITE OF BUZZER)
HANKS: (As Bob Tompkins) Yes, yes, yes?
KEVIN NEALON: (As Greg Knutsen) He's a Jew, Bob.
HANKS: (As Bob Tompkins) Yes.
(SOUNDBITE OF BELL RINGING)
HANKS: (As Bob Tompkins) That's right, Ed Koch is a Jew. Ten points.
BIANCULLI: We'll hear another one of their conversations after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. When Al Franken spoke to Terry again in 1992, he was a more prominent performer on "Saturday Night Live." He satirized the recovery movement through his character Stuart Smalley. Stuart was a caring nurturer who was addicted to 12-step programs and dispensed advice on how to keep a positive attitude. Franken even wrote a book of Stuart's daily affirmations and released an audiotape of his guided visualizations. Both of those works were titled "I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, And Doggone It, People Like Me!"
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
FRANKEN: (As Stuart) I'm going to do a great guided visualization tape. And I'm going to help people because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me. Hello, I'm Stuart Smalley. And welcome to "You're Good Enough, You're Smart Enough, And Doggone It, People Like You," a healing journey through the dysfunctional forest and other guided visualizations. It's a long title, but that's OK. It's appropriate. Now, before we go any further in this tape, I do want to start with a little warning. Guided visualizations are powerful stuff. And hopefully, the visualizations on this tape will transport the you inside of you or whatever and free that inside person to be the best you inside of you that you can be.
But I think I would be remiss if I did not tell you that I am not a licensed therapist. And while I am being paid to do this, I am not a professional in the therapeutic sense. And I do worry that I will misuse this power and really screw somebody up, you know, accidentally.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: How did you come up with the kind of whiny voice that you used for the character?
FRANKEN: You know, the voice, it's funny. Sometimes when you write something, it comes with a voice, and this just did. And I don't know why exactly other than maybe there are a few people - I actually belong to one of those groups. I belong to an anonymous fellowship for friends and family members of drunks or recovering alcoholics, too. And I think there are a number of people in rooms that I've met who sort of remind me of Stuart. And I guess the reason I came up with Stuart and the way he is, is that one of the great things I learned going to this fellowship is that I can learn stuff from people who I never in a million years thought I could. And so I sort of deliberately made Stuart, you know, pretty silly and lame in a lot of ways but very kind of courageous and sweet and vulnerable in his own way.
GROSS: I think that's one of the things I really love about the character is that you do kind of have it both ways, you know? It's, like, really funny, and you're really mocking the character, and at the same time, you could tell you have a real kind of affection and caring (laughter) for him.
FRANKEN: Well, actually, people who know me very well know that there's a lot of Stuart inside of me, a lot of the insecurity and a lot of the self-doubt and all that stuff. And I think it's in a lot of people, because I think there are parts of all of us that are very vulnerable and very, you know, can be stupid at times, and I think, you know, it's fine to give yourself permission to do that and not, you know, (as Stuart) beat yourself up.
GROSS: (Laughter) How do you deal with some of the language of the recovery movement, which you mock a lot, but also probably have some respect for it, too. Like Stuart's always saying, you know, well, this isn't my best show, but that's OK.
FRANKEN: Right.
GROSS: So there's all this, like, affirmation in the language.
FRANKEN: Well, affirmations are - I mean, first of all, our program has this incredible amount of jargon.
GROSS: Yeah.
FRANKEN: And the jargon is usually just a shorthand for some concept (laughter). So all it really is, is just a way for someone to grasp, hold onto a concept. And most of these concepts are pretty sound. And so, but the jargon can get pretty grating and silly. And yet, when the concept has helped you so much, and the way you got to the concept was through the jargon, you kind of hold onto the jargon. So Stuart is a program junkie, so he is a jargon junkie. So actually, people send me these things. I got one the other day, which is (as Stuart) fear is a dark room where negatives get developed.
GROSS: (Laughter).
FRANKEN: Which was a gift through the mail. So if you're listening and you got good ones, send them to me. Stuart will use them.
GROSS: What are some of your other favorite?
FRANKEN: Another one someone sent to me was, (as Stuart) it's easier to put on slippers than to carpet the entire world.
GROSS: Yes, I like that a lot.
FRANKEN: And there's one I'm doing that I heard in program that I'm using this week, because Stuart I think is going to be on the show this week. He's apologizing for yesterday's show, which is what he always does. And he evidently took Madonna's inventory. And he says - which this is a good thing to remember. He says, when you're pointing a finger at someone else, remember, there are three fingers pointing back at you.
GROSS: (Laughter) Now, tell me your reaction to this aspect of the recovery movement, the people who say humor is a good recovery tool.
FRANKEN: Well, Stuart believes that.
GROSS: Yeah (laughter).
FRANKEN: He says - one of the affirmations is, (as Stuart) today, I will laugh at least once.
GROSS: (Laughter).
FRANKEN: (As Stuart) And I've already laughed today, so I'm fine.
GROSS: There are some people in the recovery movement who really do believe that humor is good therapy. So although they are humorless themselves, they have taught themselves, like, little jokes and little ways to be humorous. And they're very proud of it. And it's a kind of, like, prescription for their health. Do you come across people like that? And I wonder how you react to them and how they react to you.
FRANKEN: Well, you know, it's funny. As you said that, it's true, and it's the first time I've realized that, which I can't believe that's the first time I realized that. Thank you. No, it is true.
GROSS: (Laughter).
FRANKEN: There are people who I - because there are laughter in these rooms. By the way, there's - I've gone to some open AA meetings, and there's a lot more laughter in Alcoholics Anonymous than in Al-Anon, which is really unfair, if you think about it (laughter). But, no, you're absolutely right.
GROSS: (Laughter).
FRANKEN: There are people who just by nature have no sense of humor but know that it's a good thing and are working on it.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKEN: And it's a really, really ugly thing to observe.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKEN: But, you know, God bless them.
BIANCULLI: Al Franken speaking to Terry Gross in 1992. He left "Saturday Night Live" in 1995, and 14 years later, was elected as the Democratic Senator for Minnesota, where he served until 2018. We'll end our "Saturday Night Live" tribute with a brief visit with one of the cast members who became a star during Franken's second stint with the show, Jon Lovitz, who was part of the repertory company from 1984 to 1990. The characters he created included Tommy Flanagan, the pathological liar, and Master Thespian, the pretentious actor. In 1992, he told Terry the story behind the creation of Master Thespian.
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JON LOVITZ: Well, I went to college at UC Irvine. And there was a professor of mine, William Needles, who taught me Shakespeare. And when he would do it, though, himself, he'd always go - he'd say, like, the opening speech from Henry V, the chorus. Oh, for a muse a fire that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention. And he would say like, (imitating Needles) oh, for a muse of fire that would ascend...
GROSS: (Laughter).
LOVITZ: ...The brightest heaven of invention. Like that. And I thought it was very funny. And I thought it was very good but very funny, too. And I used to imitate him. And then I kind of put it together with - you know, and then I wanted to be an actor. And an actor is a, you know, that's what a thespian is. So I was, like, the master thespian. You know, I used to joke around with my friends and say I'm the master thespian because I just wanted to be a great actor. That was my goal.
GROSS: One of my favorite sketches of the ones that you've done on "Saturday Night Live" was Harry Hanukkah.
LOVITZ: Oh.
GROSS: Did you write that?
LOVITZ: No, Al Franken and Mike Myers wrote it. But I based it on - they wrote it, and it was really funny. And then I based it on this actor, Ned Glass. Ned Glass, (imitating Ned Glass) he talks like this. And he was the father on "Bridget And Bernie." He was the Jewish father. He was in - he's probably best - "West Side Story." He was Pops, I guess, who runs the drug store or the candy store. And when I was 15 years old...
GROSS: (Imitating Ned Glass) What's wrong with you kids (laughter)?
LOVITZ: Well, you know, if you've seen these movies, then you know who he is. When I was 15 years old, I was at my best friend's house. And his father is a doctor, and Ned Glass was one of his patients. And I was 15. And my friend's father says to Ned Glass, Jon wants to be an actor. And he says, you want to be an actor? He goes, what would you do if you hurt your toe? And I said, I'd say ouch. He goes, would you say ouch if you were Hercules?
GROSS: (Laughter).
LOVITZ: And he goes, you know what you have to do? He goes, you know what you have to know to be an actor? You have to know everything. You think you could know everything? You have to know everything, you know, so as if he knew everything. And then he goes, you know, there was only - and literally, he was the same in everything he played. And, you know, he was a good actor, and he was funny. But he was always - he was just himself. He was exactly the same. And he says, you know, there was only two actors who were never typecast, me and Paul Muni.
(LAUGHTER)
LOVITZ: Anyways, I never forgot him so I...
GROSS: (Laughter) That's great.
LOVITZ: And he was good. He was a funny actor, you know, he's funny. But, you know, he never - I guess he always thought he played all these different characters. And really, he was just always, (imitating Ned Glass) hello, how are you? I mean, in "Julius Caesar," in the movie with Marlin Brando, he's in the opening market scene. And everyone's going, my lord, come here and hither. And he's in the market saying, (imitating Ned Glass) you want to buy some oranges, my lord, you know?
GROSS: (Laughter) Were there any jokers in your family? Did you have a father who'd sit around the dinner table and tell jokes?
LOVITZ: Yeah, he used to goof off, and he used to make prank phone calls. And, I mean, the look for Annoying Man I got from him. He used to comb his hair forward and wear his glasses low. He didn't act like that, but that's where I got the look from. And he used to do something funny. He used to come home and tell us he was his twin brother, Howard. We would be, like, 7 or 8. But he would play it so straight for, like, a half an hour and just insist on it. And then he would leave, and then like 20 minutes later, come back. (Laughter) I guess he'd just wait in his car. And then we'd say, Howard was here. He goes, he was, you know?
GROSS: So he really had a twin brother Howard?
LOVITZ: No, he didn't.
GROSS: Oh, he didn't.
LOVITZ: No. He just said he did.
GROSS: Oh, I see. OK.
LOVITZ: We were young, and he would do stuff like that.
BIANCULLI: Jon Lovitz speaking to Terry Gross in 1992. The 50th anniversary of "Saturday Night Live" is being celebrated all weekend with a live concert streaming on Peacock tonight, a repeat of the very first episode of "SNL" in the show's regular late night Saturday time slot on NBC and a three-hour live special on NBC Sunday night. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews a new movie that's also an old movie. He'll explain after a break. This is FRESH AIR. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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