STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Let's take a careful look at the president's proposal for the United States to take over Gaza. He surprised allies and enemies alike this week by saying the U.S. will take ownership of the territory, remove close to 2 million residents and redevelop it as a coastal paradise. Trump said the U.S. would do what was necessary to make this happen, including, if necessary, sending U.S. troops. And he said he was calling for this after careful thought. U.S. officials have spent the time since clarifying what they say he meant. Here is his press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, speaking yesterday at the White House.
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KAROLINE LEAVITT: The president has not committed to putting boots on the ground in Gaza. He has also said that the United States is not going to pay for the rebuilding of Gaza.
INSKEEP: But Israel has already seized on the part of Trump's idea that involves removing Palestinians. You may have heard our hourly newscast, saying that the Israeli defense minister told the Israeli army to prepare exit options. Is any of this legal? David Scheffer joins us next. He's the former ambassador-at-large for war crimes issues in the Clinton administration. Welcome to the program, sir.
DAVID SCHEFFER: Thank you, Steve.
INSKEEP: Under what circumstances could Israel or the United States, for that matter, make Palestinians leave?
SCHEFFER: Well, there are two ways to do this. If the intention is to do so forcibly and coercively, then a lot of trip wires and international law appear. And I'll just quickly tick them off.
INSKEEP: Yeah.
SCHEFFER: Non use of force, forcible displacement of a civilian population, right of self-determination, violations of the occupation law provisions of the Geneva Fourth Convention. And then finally, the wild card - and this is Hamas. If there's continued armed conflict with Hamas on the ground, that further complicates following through with this kind of plan. Now, if the plan is designed with the intention to do it peacefully and under a negotiated framework, then you can pursue these sorts of goals without hitting these trip wires under international law. But that would be a negotiated procedure as opposed to a forcible one.
INSKEEP: Everything you mentioned is international law, international convention, international treaties, some of which the United States is party to, others of which the United States may not be. But these are principles that have generally been followed and upheld by the United States. Are you right? Are you - is that - am I right?
SCHEFFER: Yes, absolutely. These are rock solid international law provisions the United States has been behind for decades.
INSKEEP: But with this said, you said it's possible to ask people if they would like to go. Our correspondent - one of our correspondents in the region says some Palestinians indeed would like to go because the territory is so devastated. So if people agree to it, if people embrace it, that's fine.
SCHEFFER: Well, it's more complicated than that, of course, cecause you have to have a negotiated resolution to this problem with the relevant parties involved, including the Palestinians, including the Arab nations, all of whom would be part of the methodology of how this would actually be conducted. You know, this whole proposal that came out a couple of days ago, it sort of demonstrated that I don't think it's gone through the normal NSC process of the deputies committee and principals committee and sort of rigorous examination of what the options are and what the pitfalls are, and then you come up with an actual proposal. It needs to go through that rigorous process, but it doesn't mean it can't be done. It's just it has to go through that process and ensure that these trip wires and international law are not hit.
INSKEEP: Can I ask about one thing you said there? The right of self-determination.
SCHEFFER: Yes.
INSKEEP: That would be the right of Palestinians to decide if they want to live in a particular Palestinian state. Is it possible to see this essentially as a maneuver to prevent that?
SCHEFFER: Oh, it - I - if it's in the context of a forcible or coercive plan, then, yes, you're trying to subvert that right. But of course, a negotiated procedure would have to be respectful of the right of self-determination, and determine, frankly, if there is a portion of the Palestinian population that does want to transfer out and there's a willing recipient, then fine, that's negotiated.
INSKEEP: OK.
SCHEFFER: But not otherwise.
INSKEEP: David Scheffer, former U.S. ambassador-at-large for war crimes issues. Thanks so much.
SCHEFFER: Thanks. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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