AILSA CHANG, HOST:
In Washington today, protesters gathered outside the office of the U.S. Agency for International Development, or USAID. They were there to object to the so-called Department of Government Efficiency's move to effectively shutter the agency. In that crowd were a number of lawmakers, including Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland.
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JAMIE RASKIN: And just like Elon Musk did not create USAID, he doesn't have the power to destroy it. And who's going to stop him? We are. We're going to stop him.
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CHANG: Well, Congressman Raskin joins us now. Welcome.
RASKIN: Thank you very much for having me.
CHANG: Well, thank you for being with us. So explain to me the main reason so many Democrats are speaking out against this.
RASKIN: Well, Congress set up government AID, the Agency for International Development, many decades ago. Congress authorized it. Congress appropriates the money, and it is implementing congressional programs to support U.S. foreign policy and democracy and development all over the world in, like, HIV AIDS prevention efforts in Africa, anti-malaria campaigns all over the world...
CHANG: Yeah.
RASKIN: ...Malaria nets. You know, you name it. We're in Ukraine repairing the electrical infrastructure destroyed by Putin. And so this is a move that really fortifies the autocrats of the world, and it completely violates the U.S. Constitution, so it really cannot stand.
CHANG: And I heard that you were not able to get into the building today. What were you trying to achieve, exactly, or what were you trying to find by trying to gain access into the building today?
RASKIN: Well, I represent thousands of federal workers, and a lot of them work in foreign aid and at USAID. And I wanted to go and see what's happening. They told me they were locked out of their workplace. And sure enough, we got inside, and they said it had been closed and all of the workers there were told to be teleworking, which is also, I understand, against the law under one of Trump's new executive orders. But it's an attempt really to shut down an essential government function. And, you know, this is billions of dollars of work that is being done all over the world, and they're trying to disrupt it and block it. And it comes from Elon Musk, and we don't know exactly what authority he's operating under.
CHANG: Do you believe the Trump administration is breaking the law with this move to try to shut down USAID without congressional approval? Is that your position?
RASKIN: I have no doubt. It's just like, you know, they're threatening now to dismantle the Department of Education or they're threatening to dismantle HHS or the Department of State. I mean, they can no more do any of those things than they can do this. These agencies and the departments exist by congressional lawmaking. It is the role of the executive branch simply to take care that the laws are faithfully executed, not that they're consistently undermined and destroyed. That's true of the president, much less of a guy who's never been elected to anything and has never been confirmed for anything. I understand that Elon Musk is a special government employee at DOGEY (ph) or DODGE (ph)...
CHANG: DOGE.
RASKIN: ...Or whatever they call it. The first federal department named after a crypto coin.
CHANG: But not officially a federal department, right?
RASKIN: No.
CHANG: Well, let me ask you this - would you use the phrase constitutional crisis in this moment? - because that - those are the words of Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. You were a professor of constitutional law. Would you use the same characterization as he does?
RASKIN: Well, we're certainly in a political crisis right now because they're trampling the Constitution. But I believe that we've got the resiliency within our constitutional framework to shut this down. I mean, there are thousands of federal workers whose civil service rights are being violated right now - FBI agents, government prosecutors...
CHANG: Well...
RASKIN: ...People - yeah.
CHANG: ...How would you try to shut this down? I mean, like, how can Democrats respond here? Other than sharing concerns openly, as you are, and trying to maybe hold up nominations, what other tools do Democratic lawmakers such as yourself even have?
RASKIN: Well, it's a longer conversation because a lot of these are going to be civil service lawsuits. Some of them are going to be constitutional lawsuits. Some are going to be statutory, like the inspectors general who got sacked en masse, 17 or 18 of them last week. That violates a federal law which says that Congress must be notified 30 days before an IG is fired, with a specific, substantive justification for why they're being fired. That was completely ignored and violated. We've got civil service employees at the Department of Justice who are being sacked simply because they worked on the January 6 cases - clearly political retaliation, and retaliation against them simply for doing their jobs.
CHANG: But you see litigation as the main tool here?
RASKIN: I - litigation is a major tool. Public education is a major tool. We are going to try to mobilize a mass movement in the country to force them to back off of these attacks on the Constitution and the rule of law.
CHANG: That is Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland. Thank you so much, Congressman.
RASKIN: My pleasure. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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