STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Enrique Tarrio is out of prison. President Trump pardoned the founder of the Proud Boys, who was serving 22 years for seditious conspiracy over the January 6 attack back in 2021. Trump also pardoned Stewart Rhodes, founder of the Oath Keepers, similar charges. In all, the president pardoned or granted clemency or ordered charges dismissed for more than 1,500 people, including people convicted of assaulting police with bear spray or flagpoles or police barricades or baseball bats, a metal crutch, a revolving door.
Our next guest is Tim Heaphy, lead investigator for the House committee that examined January 6. Good morning, sir.
TIM HEAPHY: Good morning, Steve.
INSKEEP: So you did all this work. A lot of people were convicted by law enforcement authorities at the same time. Did the president succeed in erasing all your work?
HEAPHY: Absolutely not. Look, our work was meant for history. We created the definitive account of what happened at the Capitol. And that matters, Steve, regardless of whether there's a short-term legal consequence for the people that were convicted of crimes at the Capitol. There's a long-term historical significance of what we did.
INSKEEP: Now, I just want to work through a little bit of this. You say a short-term legal consequence. One of the president's explanations for all these pardons was that some of the sentences were, quote, "ridiculous and excessive." We did mention a 22-year sentence for the founder of the Proud Boys, Enrique Tarrio, who wasn't there because he was in custody at the time, but was convicted of seditious conspiracy, of planning for this attack.
HEAPHY: Yeah.
INSKEEP: Was 22 years too much?
HEAPHY: No. Look, the system works. The system is regular people, jurors, that decide guilt or innocence beyond a reasonable doubt, and judges that take into account a lot of factors in sentencing. There was a range of culpability among the people convicted of crimes at the Capitol, from misdemeanor, trespass and disorderly conduct to the most serious, the use of force, the advocacy of the use of force, to disrupt the lawful function of government. That's seditious conspiracy. There's no distinction in these pardons between the least and the most culpable. They were blanket pardons for everyone.
INSKEEP: I want to note that during the presidential campaign, when people had an opportunity to vote on this, the Trump campaign did make a distinction. Now-Vice President JD Vance said on television - there's video - if you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn't be pardoned. He felt that people who had been peaceful protesters should be pardoned. But if you committed violence, you shouldn't be pardoned. When you look at the list of people who were pardoned, do they include people who committed violence?
HEAPHY: Yes, they do. The president did not take that advice from his now-vice president and others, and members of Congress have just, since the pardons, come out and said that they disagree with pardoning people who committed acts of violence. The other thing I want to point out, Steve, is that no one here has been prosecuted strictly for their political beliefs or for speech. Everyone, from the least culpable misdemeanants to the most culpable felons, have been convicted for actions taken. Things that they did, not things that they said.
INSKEEP: Do you have some sympathy for the people on the lower end of the scale here, who maybe would say that they were part of a protest, didn't really realize what was going on, got a little bit out of hand? Sure, they entered the Capitol, but they were not among the leaders, did not really understand. And there have been plenty of defendants who said that sort of thing. Do you have some sympathy for those pardons?
HEAPHY: No. Look, again, the system factored that in, and those misdemeanants either did not get jail time or were not - they weren't given the 22-year sentences like Enrique Tarrio. Again, everyone prosecuted, Steve, went beyond speech and took an affirmative act to either, you know, step across bloody stairs or go through broken windows into the Capitol. There's a level of culpability that everyone crossed that justified criminal charges in the eyes of the Justice Department and, ultimately, in the eyes of jurors and judges.
INSKEEP: Do the pardons encourage more political violence, in your view?
HEAPHY: Yes. I fear that they do. If you accept the premise that criminal sanctions deter criminal conduct, then it's a short step that the excuse of criminal behavior through these pardons actually encourages criminal behavior.
INSKEEP: Got to ask about one other thing here. Some Republican lawmakers have said, I disagree with these pardons. They've criticized the president on this, but many of them have then said, what about? What about Biden's pardons? What about Biden's pre-emptive pardons of people who were accused of various things, including members of your committee? You've got a pre-emptive pardon. Is it - does that action by the president make it harder for you to make a clear case that Trump's pardons are wrong?
HEAPHY: Yeah. Pre-emptive pardons are a fundamentally different animal. They are reflections of statements by the president that he will investigate the investigators. They're not the excuse of violence, like the pardons of the J6 rioters.
INSKEEP: Tim Heaphy, lead investigator for the House January 6 Committee. Thanks so much.
HEAPHY: Thank you, Steve. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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