TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And today my guests are Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers collaborated on the late August Wilson's "The Piano Lesson" for the screen on Netflix. It's the fourth play in Wilson's American Century Cycle, a series of 10 plays that captures the Black American experience through every decade of the 20th century. Malcolm serves as the director. And John David stars as the brash, impulsive and fast-talking Boy Willie, who wants to sell the family piano to buy land in Mississippi that his family was enslaved on. The family battle ensues between Boy Willie and his sister Berniece, played by Danielle Deadwyler, who wants the family to hold on to the piano, a family heirloom engraved with their ancestors' faces. The production of this film was a family affair. The brothers' sister, Katia, and their father, Oscar-winning Denzel Washington, are producers. And Denzel, who starred and co-produced in Wilson's "Fences," has committed to adapting Wilson's plays into 10 films. Their mother, Pauletta Washington, even appears in the movie, starring as Mama Ola. "The Piano Lesson" is Malcolm Washington's directorial debut for a feature film, and John David portrayed Boy Willie in the Broadway revival of "The Piano Lesson." He's also starred in several films, including Spike Lee's "Black Klansman" and Christopher Nolan's time-travel mind-bender "Tenet."
John David and Malcolm Washington, welcome to FRESH AIR.
JOHN DAVID WASHINGTON: Thank you for having us. Hello.
MALCOLM WASHINGTON: Yeah, thank you. That was quite an introduction. I was like, whoa.
J WASHINGTON: Totally.
MOSLEY: Well, I want to get right into our discussion about the film by playing a clip. And the story takes place in 1936. Berniece, played by Danielle Deadwyler, lives in Pittsburgh with the piano. And her brother, Boy Willie, played by you, John David, is a sharecropper in their hometown of Mississippi. And he's driven up to Pittsburgh in hopes of persuading Berniece to sell. And their uncle, played by Samuel L. Jackson, explains why Berniece won't do it. He speaks first. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OFSOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE PIANO LESSON")
SAMUEL L JACKSON: (As Doaker Charles) Berniece ain't going to sell that piano 'cause her daddy died over it.
J WASHINGTON: (As Boy Willie) All that's in the past. If my daddy had seen where he could have traded that piano in for some land of his own, it wouldn't be sitting up here now. He spent his whole life farming somebody else's land. I ain't going to do that.
MOSLEY: That was my guest today, John David Washington, with Samuel L. Jackson in the Netflix film "The Piano Lesson," directed by my other guest, Malcolm Washington. And, you know, this is such a Black American story that endures - that yearning to pass down items of value up against this very real and often desperate need to sell for practical reasons or, in Boy Willie's case, to gamble towards this American dream of owning land. And I want to start by asking you, Malcolm, what was it about this story that you felt was not only enduring but an urgent one that needed to be retold now?
M WASHINGTON: Yeah. I think it's really, really, really important for people to learn their history, to - both ancestral and just culturally know where you come from and acknowledge it because we're living in a time where people are trying to rewrite history or erase people from history and their contributions. So it's kind of incumbent upon all of us to reclaim our stories, you know, and proclaim them and declare them. Who we are as a people, who we are as a culture and identity - all these things are super-urgent to reclaim.
MOSLEY: You also wanted to bring a modern touch to this. And, I mean, August Wilson is one of the greatest playwrights of our time. So, I mean, this material is just right, but I can imagine that's also intimidating, possibly. What was your first step in bringing your director's touch to what is well-established material?
M WASHINGTON: Yeah, it was intimidating, but it was also very exciting. The first step was putting this in a context - right? - a historical context - understanding the moment that the play was written in, the moment that it's speaking to, that it's set in. It was about learning as much as I could about August Wilson - his considerations as a writer, who he was as a man, where he's from, what he stood on, his belief system - understand all these things about him and his intentions so that you can kind of pass it through the prism of yourself and bring your voice to it but always trying to serve this kind of bigger thing.
MOSLEY: John David, in the scene that we played, you were in character with Samuel L. Jackson, who actually originally played Boy Willie in 1987. And in this film, he plays the uncle to Berniece and Boy Willie. His performance - it's quiet. It's contemplative. He exudes kind of, like, this wise knowing as he watches you. And for me, it was a little bit emotional. I'm, like, going through this moment where I'm looking at all of our actors as we move through time and they age. It was just emotional to watch, knowing his history with the character.
J WASHINGTON: Right.
MOSLEY: What was it like for you to watch him watch you, both in the Broadway version...
J WASHINGTON: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: ...And in this movie?
J WASHINGTON: That's an interesting observation because I think that was happening for me, too - just his relationship to the play, which he's been, you know, very public about, and where - what he represents as a Black African American actor in this industry. There was a lot of things working at the same time. Well, we can start with the word intimidating.
MOSLEY: Right.
J WASHINGTON: We can start there. You know, pressure-filled is some words also that come to mind when thinking about - when reflecting about my experience, particularly onstage every night, saying these words that he's perfected, that he helped sort of erect and get to Broadway, you know? So there was a lot of pressure there, but I felt so encouraged because of how he supported us. He was a great resource, you know? All of his experience in the art, in this industry he was very forthcoming about, he shared. And I didn't know at the time how that was going to help me with the character necessarily. But as I gradually got into it and grew into the character, I realized how much - how beneficial it was for me to hear those stories and infuse that into the motivation of getting this thing as true as possible.
MOSLEY: He was supportive of you guys, talking to you about, like, the industry and the craft. But, like, did he talk to you about this character, or did he kind of leave that to you to interpret it?
J WASHINGTON: Things that were working he would comment on. Like, I never thought to do it that way, or, I never thought about it this way. And he said that. And if you know Mr. Sam Jackson, he's a tough critic. So any kind of positive feedback from him is, like - I'm taking to my grave. And if I never work again, I know Sam Jackson liked the choice I made. You know what I mean? So in that regard, yeah, he was influential in my encouragement of, I'm on the right track.
MOSLEY: I'm really curious, John David. Why do you think actors in particular are drawn to Wilson's work kind of as a way to deepen their craft? I'm thinking about all of the actors that are really well-known today who have gone through and done these plays. Courtney B. Vance, James Earl Jones, Viola Davis, your father, Denzel, so many others - what is the gravitational pull?
J WASHINGTON: I think so often, we have to dig. When we find good - really good writing, great writing, we still have to dig. These names you're talking about - we have to dig. We have to find it. We - you know, we excavate. We research. And we have to meet a lot of the writing, the really good writing, somewhere. August Wilson comes to us, and it's a relief when you get a voice that is yours, when you get a voice that is somebody you're related to, when you get an experience that both a 50-year-old, 70-year-old man, a 20- to 40-year-old man have. There's so many specific moments in our culture that he accurately depicts. I'm talking about when every N-word is properly placed, you know, there's magic to that, to be honest. So those - that gravitational pull you speak of - it's almost like a relief call. If we meet August Wilson with our best and most honest self and experience, you will come out a different actor.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guests today are John David and Malcolm Washington. We're talking about their new film, "The Piano Lesson." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF ALEXANDRE DESPLAT'S "PITTSBURGH")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today I'm talking with Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers have taken on the late playwright August Wilson's play, "The Piano Lesson," for the screen on Netflix. The production of this film was a family affair. Their sister, Katia, and their father, Denzel Washington, are the film's producers. And Denzel has committed to adapting Wilson's plays, which capture the Black American experience through every decade of the 20th century, into 10 films.
Your names, Malcolm and John David - where do those names come from? I can kind of guess with Malcolm, but I want to be sure.
J WASHINGTON: Well, I guess I'll start because mine is a little more controversial, if you will.
M WASHINGTON: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
J WASHINGTON: I found out later. What I mean is - I'll explain. So John David, from what I thought, known until I was about 17, was my uncle David and my great-grandfather John. One night after a victory - it was a high school football game. And we beat our rivals, and we're one game away from state championship. We're very excited. We're all happy. We're home, celebrating and just screaming out loud how great of a victory it was. And my father, in his joy and great glee, he says, that's why I named you John David, after John David Crow, a football player.
M WASHINGTON: (Laughter).
J WASHINGTON: And the record scratched...
(LAUGHTER)
J WASHINGTON: ...Because I guess that was the first time my mom heard that, definitely the first time I heard that.
(LAUGHTER)
J WASHINGTON: I didn't mind it. That's cool. But Mom was like what? And then she got quiet. And it's interesting how quietness can bring on, like, more anger than yelling, you know?
M WASHINGTON: (Laughter).
J WASHINGTON: And you could tell she was disturbed by that. She was like, but Denzel, I thought he was named after...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: Uncle David, your brother, and Grandpa John. And he's kind of like, yeah, yeah. But...
M WASHINGTON: He's like, no, but...
(LAUGHTER)
M WASHINGTON: But the truth is, but really, combination.
J WASHINGTON: Yeah, so they had different stories on it. It was different stories, yeah.
MOSLEY: Malcolm X, is that who you were named after or not?
M WASHINGTON: Actually, no. No. I'm named after - he's a cousin of mine. But our dynamic and age, he's like an uncle. My cousin Malcolm from Eden, North Carolina.
MOSLEY: All right, big ups to Cousin Malcolm.
M WASHINGTON: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: I noticed...
J WASHINGTON: And John David Crow, by the way, the Heisman Trophy (laughter).
M WASHINGTON: Yeah, yeah, don't leave John David Crow out.
MOSLEY: Right. That's right, that's right.
M WASHINGTON: The Heisman Trophy.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: Both cousins. Right, right. You know, I noticed how in interviews both of you guys, you kind of say it offhandedly, but you regularly rep Los Angeles as your hometown. And I want to know, what does it mean for the both of you to identify not only as Angelinos but, you know, you're Black Angelinos? And then you also come from, like, a very privileged section of that then, as well. I mean, how did growing up here influence your art and your taste?
M WASHINGTON: I love LA so much. I think LA is just an incredible city. There's so many amazing cultures that come together there. It's a place that's both a physical place and metaphysical in that when people think about - like, there's an idea of what LA is, and then there's kind of a lived experience of what LA is. So I like that it operates on a couple of different fronts. I think that it functions kind of like how Pittsburgh functions in our story, "The Piano Lesson," where it's - especially for Black people. It's a place where, in the Great Migration, so many Black people came in search of opportunity, to build a new life, to build themselves up. So it's a place built off of not only the hopes but the labor of dreams, you know? Like, somebody had to build that place. And I think that it lives in that, you know?
MOSLEY: You know, as a kid growing up in the '90s, your father Denzel, Spike Lee, Samuel L. Jackson - I'll even throw in, like, Eddie Murphy and just so many people - they played such a big role in the construction of Black pride for so many, myself included. And I'm just - I really want to know how that felt internally, to grow up among it and in it. Like, was Black history and Black pride also something that your parents instilled in you in the way that, like, just to the public, they were instilling in all of us?
M WASHINGTON: Absolutely. You know, I grew up with such a strong consciousness. And you got to remember, like, I grew up in the era of my dad having played Malcolm X, you know? So I identify with Malcolm X as a figure. I identify with that part of our story. And growing up in LA in the '90s, post-LA uprising, you know, where Black people have a voice - they're fighting for something, they're believing in something, they're saying something - I connected to that so much. So that, it's like how Boy Willie says, you know, I was born in the time of fire. It's like, I feel that, too, you know? That resonates with me from both the creative, artistic movements that were happening at the time, the political movements that were happening at the time, of people declaring themselves, who they are, at the time. And so all of those things live in me. And I'm happy that my parents had such a pride in our culture, have such a respect for it and instilled that in us.
MOSLEY: Yeah. John David?
J WASHINGTON: Yeah, I was just thinking about your question and my childhood. You know, my first time I played Pop Warner football, tackle football, was Baldwin Hills. And, you know...
MOSLEY: Baldwin Hills is a neighborhood in Los Angeles for those who don't know. Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: Yeah. That's right. And - but yet I was going to school in the valley, you know? And, you know, I remember the first time I got chased down by some Crips, you know, in Los Angeles with a friend of mine. You know, I remember the first time being asked where are you from, you know, and where your mama - all that. Like, there's a Kendrick part of it, too. He's like, well, where your mama stay? Where your grandma stay? Like, I've experienced that before, you know, at Magic Johnson's movie theater. So it's just such a...
MOSLEY: What would you tell people people? - 'cause, I mean, were you saying...
J WASHINGTON: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: ...Oh, I'm Denzel Washington's son?
J WASHINGTON: I would absolutely not say that. You know, it was funny. Like, and it was depicted in "The Wood." Like, the character says, I'm from North Carolina. I would say that. I'm, like, I'm actually - I would deny where I was from and say I was from another state a lot of times. But I forget why they were chasing us at one time. It was a friend of mine that started stuff.
M WASHINGTON: Yeah, you know why (laughter).
J WASHINGTON: I do know why, actually. I'm not going to - I'm not going to call them out here. But I think about some of those memories of my LA experience because it is an interesting one because of the blends of cultures that I was able to experience - you know, going to private school, yet playing ball, Baldwin Hills, having friends that lived in different neighborhoods. You know, I just got a full-course meal in diversity.
MOSLEY: Yeah, and how to navigate. I mean, that is definitely...
J WASHINGTON: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...An experience.
J WASHINGTON: Well, and that - what helped me with that navigation was sports, was athletics. No matter where you're from, like, they respect you if you put work on - if you put in work on the field or on the court. You actually become more interesting to that person that may be not from the same background that you're from. But you're a killer on the court or on the field, they know that you - they have - you have their back, and they can trust you. There's something about that. There's a universal language in sport and athletics that really helped me with my identity and helped me sort of course-correct and navigate relationships I had from people that weren't from where I was from.
MOSLEY: Sports is a unifying force for sure. It also is, like, really high-pressure. And, I mean, all jobs are performances. But, like, sports and the creative space, particularly acting - like, a bad sports play or a bad acting performance could make or break a career, right? I mean, both of you seem to thrive from that pressure. What is it in you - in the both of you that maybe thrives from that pressure, John David?
J WASHINGTON: Thrives from it. Well, I'm still kind of living. I don't know.
(LAUGHTER)
M WASHINGTON: Yeah, you're one bad performance away.
J WASHINGTON: Yeah. Like, when you say it like that, like...
(LAUGHTER)
J WASHINGTON: ...This could be - I mean, a lot of it - this felt like life and death for me. I don't mean to get too dramatic, but this project, the play specifically - I knew on the other side of this, I'm going to find out about myself. And I did have these real conversations with myself and my publicists that if this - if I fall, I don't know if I can get back up from this, you know? And...
MOSLEY: Really? Why? Why?
J WASHINGTON: I did feel like - well, because of how powerful and how important and how we hold August Wilson's words and his artistry. And being on the boards, as they call it, on Broadway - you know, there's a lot more respect. There's a different kind of respect you get from your peers, from the community at large that are in the artistry if you can actually act. I've said this before. I liken it to a rapper. I've been able to work with the Dr. Dres and the Pharrells and, you know, the Timbalands or the world as producers, but, like, can you actually rap? Do you have bars? And that's what this was - that's what I needed to find out for myself. And so I felt a lot of pressure in that way.
MOSLEY: How do you make yourself comfortable with rejection?
J WASHINGTON: Through repetition. I've had plenty of - I have plenty of experiences of - with rejection. I'm very familiar with rejection. I've almost gotten comfortable to the point of where it becomes almost, like, an impervious feeling. And so my whole life - we're talking about, you know, our LA upbringing and stuff. Like, it does feel that - I felt like I might not have been able to be seen. I got rejected in my real personality sometimes, so I felt like I could hide it or I can filter that through those feelings through sport, through activity, to enact my resentment that built up for how I was - you know, in my interactions. So rejection is a byproduct of pursuing what you love and what you love doing.
MOSLEY: I want to slow that down a little bit, that resentment that you're talking about. What do you mean when you say that?
J WASHINGTON: So if I got judged by somebody because they knew who I was related to and where I was from, I felt like I can introduce them or reintroduce them to me. I can reintroduce myself as this athlete on the field or as this actor on screen or stage. I don't necessarily use that as motivation anymore, but I did. And I found that - I found success in it, and I found my identity in that - that I was finding respect from people through my acts on the field...
MOSLEY: Outside of your father's name. Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: Yes, exactly.
MOSLEY: Our guests today are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And today my guests are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington. The brothers collaborated on the late August Wilson's "The Piano Lesson" for the screen on Netflix. It's the fourth play in Wilson's American Century Cycle, a series of 10 plays that capture the American experience for Black people through every decade of the 20th century. Malcolm Washington has produced and written several short films. "The Piano Lesson" is his directorial full-length feature debut. John David portrayed Boy Willie for the first time on Broadway and now plays him in the film. He also starred in several other films, including Spike Lee's "Black Klansman," the mystery-comedy-thriller "Amsterdam" and Christopher Nolan's time-travel mind-bender "Tenet."
John David, you were a pro football player with the St. Louis Rams in the early 2000s. You also spent four years as a running back for the United Football League's Sacramento Mountain Lions. But when you were playing pro, you got injured. What happened?
J WASHINGTON: I tore my Achilles, and I ruptured it on my right Achilles. And that was it - retirement. And that's when I transitioned into acting.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: Open audition call for a football player for a show called "Ballers." They were auditioning football players all over the country. And that was my way in.
MOSLEY: Is it true that you showed up with, like, your cast or boot or something to the...
J WASHINGTON: I did, yes.
MOSLEY: ...HBO "Ballers" audition?
J WASHINGTON: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, with the boot, on pain pills. So I was very relaxed, to say the least. And I had my first audition with Sheila Jaffe.
MOSLEY: Well, "Ballers" - it's great. You were phenomenal in that for that to be, like, your...
J WASHINGTON: Thank you.
MOSLEY: ...First major role. Your character in "Ballers" had this attachment to his college number, 18. And he had all of these attachments - his first championship, his plays, his accomplishments - that were like - they were like steps. They were like a process to get, you know, to - for his identity. And it's what you're...
J WASHINGTON: Right.
MOSLEY: ...Talking about as far as you forging your identity. What was that process of letting that go and turning towards that new thing, that new identity, that identity that you kind of were running from with - from your father's identity, but now you were stepping into it as a novice?
J WASHINGTON: OK, doctor. Yeah. It's - well, it was - you know, these collaborations that I've been able to experience, these - some of these sets, the - some of these films I got to be a part of and these giants I've gotten to work with who I revere so high. I think they're, you know, Hollywood gods, you know? And them giving me the confidence in myself, them wanting -treating me like a colleague, you know, trusting my instincts, picking me for a reason and the way they used me - literally the way they've edited me in their films and the way they've, you know - like, it's small things.
But there's a couple moments in "Black Klansman" that were happening just naturally. I was just going, riffing, and Spike used it. You know what I mean? Like, he just - he put it in the film. And so it's one thing to tell you trust and, you know, they trust you and all that. But then they used it in that way, and I was like, oh, man, maybe I am enough. And that really helped me in my confidence going forward.
MOSLEY: Do you remember the lines that you ad-libbed for Spike that got left in?
J WASHINGTON: Oh, yeah. I believe we can. With the right white man, we can do anything. Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
J WASHINGTON: I think the line originally was, with the right man, or we can - I think - I believe we can with the right man. And I added, with the right white man...
M WASHINGTON: Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: ...We can do anything.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: Which is really apt for the story.
M WASHINGTON: Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: It was so appropriate. It just came out. I don't know where it came from. I just did - I just said it. And he kept it...
MOSLEY: That's awesome.
J WASHINGTON: ...'Cause I think in my face, too, he could tell, like, I was just in it. Like, it was just, like, a flowing thing, and he used it. I couldn't believe it.
MOSLEY: Yeah. That also happened in "Tenet" - right? - Christopher Nolan's film for "Tenet." You did a couple of ad-libs and things that he was really impressed with.
J WASHINGTON: Well, he - I got a laugh. And I would have lived with that. I can go to my grave knowing I made Christopher Nolan laugh in a line that I contributed to, you know? And he - we did it a couple more times, did it differently but same line. And he used it. There's other times, too, where the - there's another scene that - you know, that some emotional stuff started to happen. And, you know, I get - I don't know if that take was for me. I was just - I just felt something, and he used it in a massive close-up. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I can't believe it. You know?
So - and it was just - you know, he was, again, telling me throughout the process that he trusted my instincts and, like, I hired you for a reason. But he also used it in the film, so - and he showed me what he meant. I guess he showed me what he meant, you know, with some of those scenes. So the - you know, and that was kind of the process of being like, you know what? OK. Yeah. I can - it's - I'm better served to go another route in my motivation. That was - the other one - the other stuff is bad fuel.
MOSLEY: Malcolm, you got to be on the set of "Tenet," right? You visited the set.
M WASHINGTON: (Laughter) I did visit. I visited for an afternoon.
MOSLEY: You laugh. You got to tell the story. It was kind of an emotional experience, right?
M WASHINGTON: (Laughter) It was so dope. It was so dope. I'm a big Chris Nolan fan, you know? In our generation of filmgoers, he's, like, you know, one of those guys. We came, you know, from "Following," "Memento," like, all of them. We - I watched all of his films and know them well. And he has - he creates worlds, you know? So when you visit his set, it feels like you're in his world. Like, everything just looks like - like, if they weren't shooting there and you opened your eyes there and you found yourself there, you'd be like, this feels like a Christopher Nolan movie. It just - it's just, you know, dripping in his personality, it feels like, and his aesthetics.
So it was really exciting to go and see my brother at work. And when I got there, there was a woman called Arielle that I worked with. She went to AFI with me. She used to production design my shorts, actually. So it was really crazy being in a Nolan set with Arielle, who's assistant art directing, and my brother's on set. And they're shooting in this, like, shipping container, so you can't really see anything. They're just, like, people in a box, and you kind of get this feeling that something's going to happen. And some - a monitor emerges, and I get to see some of the stuff on - that they're shooting.
And I, like - they - Hoyte frames up the camera, and I see my brother doing something probably really mundane. It was, like - you were, like, opening, like, a door or something. It was, like, very - like, nothing was happening. And he frames up, and I hear Chris Nolan say, like, John David's name and gives him a note. And I just burst into tears 'cause it was like, whoa. This is, like - it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Like, this is a kind of moment that we've been thinking - like, when we lived together, we dreamed together, too. You know?
J WASHINGTON: That's right.
M WASHINGTON: We talked about wanting to do stuff like that - you know, wanting to be in a movie like that.
J WASHINGTON: That's right.
M WASHINGTON: So when he - seeing that image and hearing those sounds and knowing that world - and everything just kind of converged on itself in that moment. And I have, you know, somebody from my film school right next to me. And she put her hand on me and was like, it's OK. And I was just like, this is, like - this is too much. It was just overwhelming. It was so overwhelming.
J WASHINGTON: I feel like you - didn't you break down when we were all kind of standing - like, after the scene, we were all standing together.
M WASHINGTON: I didn't - no, I didn't break down, break down.
J WASHINGTON: No, but...
M WASHINGTON: You got embarrassed because - so they shoot, and they walk out. And they break for lunch, and they all walk off the set. And I, like, jump in front of Chris. I'm like, yo, thank you for your contribution, because I'm, like - you know, I'm - I love movies. Like, I really love this stuff. You know? So the people that make movies that make me feel something or think about - like, they mean a lot to me. Like, I feel like I owe them something.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
M WASHINGTON: You know? And these films feel like they become yours as an audience member. It's like, that's my - like, that was my - like, I watched "Phantom Thread" and "The Master." I'm, like, you know, these are my movies.
MOSLEY: Right.
M WASHINGTON: So when I see people like that, I tell them, I'm, like, yo, thank you. Like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for everything you've done. And I did that. But it was, like, not that moment.
(LAUGHTER)
M WASHINGTON: You know, it was, like, everybody's at work. Like, they're trying to get to lunch. And I look, and John David just drops his head, like, dog. Like, nah, man. Like, just not right now.
J WASHINGTON: Mr. Nolan was trying to get his ribs.
M WASHINGTON: He was trying - yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
J WASHINGTON: They got ribs today, sir. What are you doing (laughter)?
M WASHINGTON: He's, like, holding them like, I appreciate it, man, but can you step out the way?
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: Excuse my younger brother, please. Yeah.
M WASHINGTON: Yeah. It was so funny. It was so funny. But he was gracious. Thank God.
J WASHINGTON: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MOSLEY: Our guests today are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today my guests are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington.
Both of you have had experiences on - of being on set with your parents. John David, I think you've told stories about being on the set of "Glory" and also "Philadelphia," right? Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: Oh, yeah. Yes, I have. Yeah.
MOSLEY: What do you remember the most about those experiences?
J WASHINGTON: Well, like, I'd like to echo what Malcolm said. I mean, movies are - I might take them too seriously. Like, I mean, they were a huge part of my life. They are part of my upbringings. Some of these movies, you know, helped raise me, you know? I had the blue suit I got for Christmas. I want - for Christmas one year, all I wanted was a blue suit and a new VHS "Glory" tape 'cause I broke it...
MOSLEY: Oh.
J WASHINGTON: ...'Cause I watched it so many times.
MOSLEY: How old were you...
J WASHINGTON: You know what I mean?
MOSLEY: ...When you wanted that? Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: I think 6, maybe - 6...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: ...Or something like that. Was it '80 - '88, '89? Something like that. So it - but on "Glory," I - yeah, I've told the story before where I remember being on set. I might have been 5 or something like that. And this - directed by Ed Zwick - there's this huge sequence, this battle scene at the end. The 54th is marching up - marching over this fort that they have to take. And I think we're in South Carolina. And, you know, there's - it's a lot of sand traps and sand dunes, and it's, like, explosives and, well, I guess fireworks and fake explosives, pyrotechnics.
And we're sitting somewhat in the distance at video village, and it's night out. All you can see is darkness and then the light coming from this - from the fireworks and the light, kind of like the opening beat of our movie. And you see - I see my dad coming from the ashes, comes up over top of the hill, looking all dirty and heroic in his blue suit. And he says to me, John David, you want to come on set? And I geek up. I look at my mom, and she shakes her head. She didn't even say no. She shakes her head no. She didn't even say no.
M WASHINGTON: (Laughter).
J WASHINGTON: It was - I was devastated. That one hurt a lot. And I remember that so specifically. Like, I don't - I couldn't have been more than 5 years old. And on then on...
MOSLEY: Did she say why? But what - did she say why you couldn't go?
J WASHINGTON: So I'm - it's coming up on Thanksgiving. When I see her on Thanksgiving, I'm going to ask her. So I never - it never occurred to me to ask her why. But I'm thinking she's going to deny that happened. She's going to deny her saying no. She's probably going to say something else happened.
M WASHINGTON: Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: You know, right?
M WASHINGTON: She'll blame you (laughter).
J WASHINGTON: She'll blame me or Pops. And I know Pops was - he was - I remember Dad wanted - my dad wanted me there.
M WASHINGTON: Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: So, yeah, that was a great memory. But that one - that was one of my favorite films of all time, so...
MOSLEY: Yes.
J WASHINGTON: Yeah, that was a great memory, great moment.
MOSLEY: Did you get the blue suit?
J WASHINGTON: I did. I did.
MOSLEY: Did you wear it and, like...
M WASHINGTON: You know...
MOSLEY: ...Play...
M WASHINGTON: ...What's wild...
MOSLEY: ...You know, play act?
M WASHINGTON: ...Too?
MOSLEY: Yeah.
M WASHINGTON: Is the woman that made that suit was a costume designer on that film. Her name is Francine, Miss Francine.
J WASHINGTON: Miss Francine.
M WASHINGTON: Miss Francine was our costume designer on "The Piano Lesson."
MOSLEY: Oh.
M WASHINGTON: Yeah, so it was, like...
J WASHINGTON: Isn't that crazy?
M WASHINGTON: ...A full-circle moment.
J WASHINGTON: Yeah.
MOSLEY: That's pretty amazing. You were...
J WASHINGTON: Yeah, it is.
MOSLEY: ...You were going to mention "Philadelphia," too, you were on the set of.
J WASHINGTON: Oh, yeah, "Philadelphia." I remember being in some of the courtroom scenes for. And I believe one time, I got to yell action. Jonathan let me yell action once.
M WASHINGTON: That's cool.
J WASHINGTON: Yeah, that was really cool. There's a story that my dad tells, though, about that movie. That's when - I've been watching that a lot lately. It's one of my favorites. I think it's one of my dad's most underrated performances. It was incredible. I think you can't get Tom Hanks' performance without what my dad did. They just worked hand in hand. It was remarkable work.
MOSLEY: Yes.
J WASHINGTON: And he talked about the story with Jonathan Demme, how there's this big scene. And it was sort of in a - it was a wide shot of him kind of explaining the point of the film. He - the lines goes along, like - along the lines of, let's talk about what this case is really all about - the general public's hatred, our loathing, our fear of homosexuals. And that hatred and that fear led to a particular firing of my client, Beckett, Andrew Beckett.
And he talked about that scene 'cause it's such a powerful monologue in that moment. And in the - you know, the moment that happened, he said he did a cartwheel first before he entered the - approached the bench. And what was so interesting about that story is Jonathan Demme didn't judge him. He didn't question him. He said, oh, that was interesting. And then they had a laugh afterwards 'cause Pops was saying he just wanted to how, like - that he - if you can trust him, that he just - that he has freedom to do stuff. He's obviously not going to do a cartwheel, but, like, do you trust me?
And I thought that was so interesting because in that film, Jonathan Demme and he are having the same language, that character. I could feel the trust in the edits and in the way he was captured in that film, and that story sort of depicted the feeling that I get from watching my dad in that film. So I thought that was a cool story that Pops shared with me - some insight.
MOSLEY: That is a cool story. And I'm wondering how it informs your acting, your process, when you're on set with others and, like, you're building that trust, too, you know?
J WASHINGTON: Well, I don't think I'll ever need a cartwheel to test the parameters of our trust, but - (laughter).
M WASHINGTON: Well, you do some questionable things, too. You be barking.
J WASHINGTON: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. That is true.
M WASHINGTON: You know, when we're about to shoot...
MOSLEY: What's the barking about?
J WASHINGTON: Oh, boy.
M WASHINGTON: He just starts barking like crazy right before we start shooting, like - right? - sound up, camera roll, sound roll.
J WASHINGTON: Yeah (laughter)
MOSLEY: What's that about, John David? What is that about?
J WASHINGTON: That's a good question.
(LAUGHTER)
J WASHINGTON: I don't know. I need to break up how precious this is sometimes. You know what it is? What I love about acting is the examination and exploration of the psychological life of a human being, to play human beings and explore that. And there's something about making sure you're alive and well, checking in on yourself before you get into this thing, this thing we do. I think that's part of it. Some of it is to take away from the stiffness. Some of it is to take away from - or to add that this is fun. You know, a lot of it is for me, to make sure I am aware, and then make sure I'm not thinking at all. Do not think. Try to be in the moment. So a lot of that - some of that. But I don't know. I don't have a definitive answer for you.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guests today are John David and Malcolm Washington. We're talking about their new film, "The Piano Lesson." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MISHA MENGELBERG TRIO'S "MISHA MENGELBERG TRIO")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today, I'm talking to Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers have taken on the late playwright August Wilson's play "The Piano Lesson" for the screen on Netflix.
I want to ask you guys about something else, and I want to see if I can formulate it right. But, like, how do you deal with the heat of fandom and desire? Because, I mean, your dad, for instance, is not only a great actor...
M WASHINGTON: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: You're already laughing. But your dad, of course, he's a great actor. But he's also, like, every mom and every auntie's crush. And...
J WASHINGTON: Fine in every generation - right? - or something like that.
M WASHINGTON: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: Fine in every generation, right.
J WASHINGTON: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: And now you guys are continuing the torch. I actually just picked up an LA Magazine and, John David, you're on the cover...
M WASHINGTON: Oh, yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Looking like a sex symbol, you know?
M WASHINGTON: Oh, yeah.
J WASHINGTON: Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Oh, boy.
M WASHINGTON: Oh, yeah. Let the people know.
J WASHINGTON: Let's let them not know, OK?
MOSLEY: I'm just curious...
J WASHINGTON: But what's the question?
(LAUGHTER)
M WASHINGTON: He's like, that's it, that's it. Yeah.
MOSLEY: Period. No.
M WASHINGTON: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Like, I'm wondering, what did your dad teach you or what lessons did you learn from watching him when it comes to navigating that energy and that heat that, like, throngs of fans throw towards you? Because, I mean, I can't even imagine what your DMs might be like, you know?
J WASHINGTON: Oh, my God.
(LAUGHTER)
J WASHINGTON: Who's listening to this? Let's keep it - no. Like, honestly, what I think about childhood memories, you know, my dad bringing home a trumpet. You know, I remember him - he dyed his hair red, getting ready for Red in "Malcolm X."
MOSLEY: Yeah.
J WASHINGTON: You know, there was him walking me around the streets of New York reciting Shakespeare when he was getting ready for "Richard III." You know, so I've always been, you know, fascinated with that. My mom sat down and played a number, a classical number on the piano without reading the notes, you know? I think about that, you know, of that, really. I think that's the relationship. That's what was being taught. It seems like it was always - to me, it's always been about the work. That's what they both teach us about the craft.
MOSLEY: They both teach you that. But, like, there's no denying that there's also that other thing, and I just want to know how you navigate it, both of you.
M WASHINGTON: I think that they just, like, they were so protective of themselves first and us, as well. You know, like, they always just highlighted, like, keeping the noise outside. And I think that heat and desire that you're speaking of can be that noise, you know? And I think that we all just live very kind of meaningful private lives. And I don't have that heat and desire in my DMs. So I don't have to deal with it, you know, I don't have to deal with it in the same way John David does as an actor and his face is out there all the time. But I think that they just...
J WASHINGTON: Weren't you on GQ? Wasn't there a GQ thing that...
(LAUGHTER)
M WASHINGTON: With you, with you.
J WASHINGTON: Weren't you, perfectly, with your well-moisturized lips and the goatee.
M WASHINGTON: I was moisturized. Yeah, I was moisturized.
J WASHINGTON: And the hair was hairing.
M WASHINGTON: It was a full beard. It was a full beard.
J WASHINGTON: Yeah, the braids were braiding. Yeah, OK. All right.
M WASHINGTON: Thank you. But for real, I think it's just, like, the kind of focus and protection of your piece and yourself and not kind of getting swept up in all the other stuff.
J WASHINGTON: They made it clear, too, that, like, this is theirs. Ya'll got to earn yours, you know what I mean? It's like it's them taking us to school. It's my dad coaching us. Like, we were living somewhat of, I think, a normal life because that's the environment they set. We celebrated Christmas. We would go trick-or-treating on Halloween, you know? It was a lot of that going on.
MOSLEY: You make such a strong point, and it's beautiful to see. But every chance you get, you remind people that you're the sons of both Denzel and Pauletta. And...
M WASHINGTON: They be trying to erase my mom out here. It's crazy, yeah.
J WASHINGTON: It's more of a reaction, I guess.
(LAUGHTER)
M WASHINGTON: We love our parents.
J WASHINGTON: Yeah.
M WASHINGTON: You know, we love both of them. And you know what saddens me sometimes about that is, like, man, just, like, the role that mothers play, that Black women play in our culture, that Black mothers play, it's, like, such a crucial one. And they're often such - it's such an overlooked position sometimes. Like, people don't give them their flowers. So yeah, we're going to give our mom her flowers. Like, we love her. She's done so much for us.
J WASHINGTON: And to piggyback on that, to celebrate the woman she was before she was a mother, before she was a wife. You know, both my brother and her have their masters in the artistry, the only ones in the family that do. So, like, that's important to me, too. And we both carry that with us when we approach the art. That's part of the reason we love it as well, knowing that she's an artist in her own right. So it's to piggyback on what you said because I think that's a great point about women.
MOSLEY: Yeah. What's her reaction to you guys making that statement and stating it so clear? Because as a mother, I just always smile. Like, I want my children to be speaking my name out in the world like that, you know?
M WASHINGTON: Yeah. And can you imagine, you know what I mean? Can you imagine? It's like, they've gotten to, like, an impossible situation, you know? It's like, my dad growing up, first in Harlem and then Mount Vernon, and just kind of, like, where he's ascended to in his...
J WASHINGTON: He be claiming Harlem like that?
M WASHINGTON: Yeah. What do you mean, Harlem?
J WASHINGTON: Harlem.
M WASHINGTON: Harlem, yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
M WASHINGTON: And then God forbid he meets somebody from Mount Graham.
J WASHINGTON: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
M WASHINGTON: Then it's like, what's Harlem, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
M WASHINGTON: But yeah. You know, they've both overcome and made such incredible lives for themselves. And I think we carry pride of coming from such strong, you know, people that live a purposeful life.
MOSLEY: Yeah. John David, the older you get, the more and more you sound like your dad.
M WASHINGTON: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: Do you guys get...
M WASHINGTON: Not...
MOSLEY: ...Confused at all in listening, like...
M WASHINGTON: You know, I used to...
MOSLEY: ...On the phone, or no?
M WASHINGTON: I used to - yes. I used to call the house. I used to call the house. And, of course, you have that thing which you're - you know, when you're 16, 17, maybe staying out a little late...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
M WASHINGTON: ...Or something, or the report card came in. It wasn't perfect. And you'd call the house, and you're like, oh, I hope my sister picks up. I hope my brother picks up. And John David would pick up, but he would sound just like my dad. Hello?
(LAUGHTER)
M WASHINGTON: Oh, my goodness. I would get - I would stand straight up, no matter where I was at.
J WASHINGTON: Dang. Guess I can't deny it. Yeah.
M WASHINGTON: He's always been like that.
MOSLEY: Yeah. Do you think you'll adapt any more of August Wilson's plays?
M WASHINGTON: You know what? I think that there's a really wonderful thing happening now where so far, there's three films. There's been three different filmmakers and three different voices that have come to them. And they each - each of the films kind of reflect the voice of the filmmaker so far, like my dad with "Fences," Mr. Wolfe with - you know, he's an incredible theater director. And I think that you can see that talent at work in "Ma Rainey." My voice is different from theirs, and I think you see that in "Piano Lesson." So I hope that for the rest of them, they continue to get varied voices from different backgrounds and different kind of points of view and let this whole thing be a much larger kind of project where you look back and it's this tapestry of Black artists working in this time, connecting to this seminal text.
MOSLEY: Malcolm Washington and John David Washington. This was such a pleasure, to talk with both of you. And thank you so much.
J WASHINGTON: Yes, thank you. Thank you for having us.
M WASHINGTON: Yeah, great conversation. I appreciate it.
J WASHINGTON: Definitely.
MOSLEY: Malcolm and John David Washington. Their adaptation of August Wilson's play "The Piano Lesson" is now on Netflix.
(SOUNDBITE OF AKSEL JOERGENSEN'S "AFSLAPNINGSNIVEAU 51")
MOSLEY: On tomorrow's show - Ira Gershwin wrote some of the best-known lyrics in the American popular songbook, including "Love is Here To Stay," "'S Wonderful," "Fascinating Rhythm," "Embraceable You" and "I've Got A Crush On You." We'll talk with Michael Owen, author of "Ira Gershwin: A Life In Words." And we'll listen to some great music. I hope you can join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF ERROLL GARNER'S "'S WONDERFUL")
MOSLEY: Keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Seiwert. Susan Nyakundi directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF ERROLL GARNER'S "'S WONDERFUL") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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