ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
Since she's a botanist, let's say Robin Wall Kimmerer's last book bloomed slowly. It was called "Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, And The Teachings Of Plants." A small nonprofit press published the book in 2013. It spread by word-of-mouth. And seven years later, it hit The New York Times Best Seller list in paperback. It has now sold more than 2 million copies, and the author was recognized with a MacArthur genius grant. Professor Kimmerer, who is a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, has followed up "Braiding Sweetgrass" with a new book-length essay that explores similar themes. It's called "The Serviceberry: Abundance And Reciprocity In The Natural World." So good to have you with us.
ROBIN WALL KIMMERER: It's an honor to talk with you.
SHAPIRO: "The Serviceberry" begins with a scene of harvest. So tell us what you were doing and what went through your mind.
KIMMERER: I was harvesting serviceberries, also known as juneberries. And they were so abundant. I was picking them by the hands full and really got to thinking about kind of the economy of abundance and what the generosity of a tree like serviceberries could teach us about our own human economies.
SHAPIRO: Let's dig into that phrase economy of abundance, because at the heart of this book, you, a botanist, are making an economic argument. What is the shift that you're encouraging people to make both conceptually and in their actual lives?
KIMMERER: Yeah, you know, what I'm really interested in is thinking about how could we imagine a human economy with a kind of currency that works like ecological economies, the economies of nature. And when we think about the extractive capitalist economy that we're all enmeshed in, it breaks a lot of the rules of how natural landscapes are organized.
And so it's really an inquiry to say could we imagine a human economy which is based on reciprocity rather than extraction? Could we imagine an economy which is circular and regenerative, rather than an industrial pipeline, etc.? So it's kind of an examination of biomimicry, of what could we learn from the economies of nature.
SHAPIRO: And it does exist in some places in our lives. As you say, this doesn't have to come entirely from our imagination. What are some places in the human world where we can see this in practice today?
KIMMERER: Well, you know, gift economies are quite well-known and widespread in Indigenous cultures, particularly traditional peoples. So there are many examples, both in my Potawatomi cultures and potlatch cultures, in Polynesian cultures, that use the gift economy in order to distribute goods and services without a market.
But, you know, I think there are also lots of examples in our everyday life if we really pay attention. You know, one that I like to think about is things like little free libraries. That's a way of sharing literature with your whole community, right? And then we scale that to public libraries. So the notion is we don't all have to own everything. Abundance comes from sharing what we have.
SHAPIRO: As I read it, I wondered if public radio could be considered a gift economy, but that probably (laughter) shows my own bias.
KIMMERER: No, you're absolutely right. We just finished pledge week here...
SHAPIRO: (Laughter).
KIMMERER: ...And I was thinking that the whole time, I thought, I should have included NPR...
(LAUGHTER)
KIMMERER: ...As a gift economy. It totally is.
SHAPIRO: You write, recognizing enoughness is a radical act in an economy that is always urging us to consume more. What does that mean in practice to recognize enoughness?
KIMMERER: Well, you know, I think of it as a radical act because of all of the messages that we get from corporate America telling us, oh, if you buy this, you'll be more successful. You'll be happier. You just can't live without this, right? There are all these messages that tell us, consume, consume, consume. In fact, you know, we are often referred to not as citizens but as consumers.
And so this idea of putting the brakes on consumption is really important, particularly when we know that climate change is a product of hyperconsumption, right? The more we consume, the more damage that we're doing to the planet. And so if we can start to put the brakes on consumption through practices like gratitude and reciprocity, we say, you know, I already have everything that I need. I really don't need to buy that next thing. Instead, I'm going to invest in relationship. I'm going to invest in belonging rather than belongings. And, you know, I think it's good for - I know it's good for the planet, but it's also good for us.
SHAPIRO: As somebody who is a trained botanist, how did trained economists respond when you approached them and started to describe some of these ideas?
KIMMERER: I was really pleased that they listened with me and could imagine - in fact, in many cases, are already engaging in this idea of biomimicry, of how can we change our economic systems so that they don't degrade the very life support systems that all life depends on? So ecological economists are already thinking in this direction and working in really creative ways that, as a botanist, I can only barely understand (laughter). And so it was exciting to me to know that the economics community is thinking about this, at least some of them.
SHAPIRO: Has it been surprising for you to see the way these ideas that you put forward in such a humble, small way initially in 2013 have just - I mean, forgive the metaphor - but spread like a tenacious plant?
KIMMERER: (Laughter) Yes. It is, to me, again, really uplifting and gives me a lot of hope. Because, you know, what I hear from readers practically every day, is this real longing to live in a world that values native species around us, that values the natural world. And it was as if "Braiding Sweetgrass" and the work of so many others gave people a permission to passionately love the world and to act on its behalf.
One of the things that is most moving to me is that people will write to me and say you issued an invitation to reciprocity, to give back to the Earth, and so here's what I'm doing. There are people who are, you know, changing their classrooms, who are changing their careers, who are changing their landscapes. And to me, it represents a movement in which people are reclaiming their role as healers of land, not just as spoilers of land.
SHAPIRO: Robin Wall Kimmerer's latest book is "The Serviceberry: Abundance And Reciprocity In The Natural World." So good to talk to you. Thank you.
KIMMERER: Thank you, Ari.
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