STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
We're following President-elect Trump as he begins to staff his administration. One of the first appointments was of Susie Wiles, the campaign manager soon to be the first woman to serve as White House chief of staff - big job. So how involved will women be in a second Trump administration? New York Times congressional correspondent Annie Karni covered Trump's first term, and she's on the line. Good morning.
ANNIE KARNI: Good morning, Steve.
INSKEEP: OK, so early in the first administration, you wrote about how men were constantly quitting or being fired - Anthony Scaramucci, Reince Priebus - all these guys, while some women seem to be survivors. Why would that be?
KARNI: That's right. The women, the Kellyanne Conways, the Sarah Sanders, the Hope Hicks, Ivanka - these people stayed the whole time or left on their own terms. And I think the top-line reason is that Trump didn't see them as direct competition in the same way he might have seen - not like in the caricature of Steve Bannon pulling the strings from behind the scenes and him just being Steve Bannon's puppet. That was never how any of these women positioned themselves when they worked in the White House. And that kind of level of direct competition is not something that serves someone well working for Trump.
INSKEEP: I don't want to psychoanalyze here too much, but, you know, if you're a guy trying to be a strong, manly man, does a man just automatically seem like more of a threat to you?
KARNI: I mean, possibly, yes. And these women who survived there kind of play along with him. There's no evidence that they challenged him or wanted to be seen as kind of the main player. They were oftentimes obsequious to him. Like, I remember at the inaugural ball when he called out Kellyanne Conway, she smiled and curtsied. Ivanka famously laughed along when Trump back in the day said if she wasn't his daughter, he'd want to date her. They are willing to play the role that he wants them to be in, and that allows them to survive and actually have great power in his circle.
He's also someone who, like, way back to his real estate days, has actually considered himself a professional promoter of women. There was - Barbara Res was a senior person at the Trump Organization in his real estate world, who - at the time, it was really rare to have a woman at that level. And his father, Fred Trump, vehemently disagreed with his decision to promote her. So he has long, like, thought of himself as kind of an equal opportunity promoter in the workplace.
INSKEEP: Well, this is very interesting.
KARNI: Yeah.
INSKEEP: Should this then complicate the idea of Trump and women that is discussed among Democrats, of course?
KARNI: Well, the women who are loyal to Trump absolutely think so. They like to point to their own experiences with him saying, you know, he - Kellyanne Conway says, I rose farther in Trump world than I did in a career in Republican politics. Ivanka Trump says, he treated me exactly the same as he treated my brothers. And they always point to their own experiences with him, which is not - that's fine, but it doesn't mean that he's not - hasn't been found liable for sexual abuse. It doesn't mean he doesn't regularly make sexist attacks. It doesn't mean that his policies are good for women. Like, they lean on just their personal experiences to defend him, which is a very weak argument for defending someone's record on women. And the bottom line is that both things can be true. He can be liable for sexual abuse and have treated a few women in his circle with respect.
INSKEEP: Where does Nikki Haley fit into all of this? She endured the first administration, then ran against him and has been told she will be out of this administration.
KARNI: Yeah, I think she's a great example. She's someone who endured the first administration. She left on her own terms. She left. He gave her an Oval Office press conference, where they sat side by side in chairs, and he praised her. She called Jared Kushner a genius, I remember, in that press conference and left like a star. Then she challenges him, and he has said, there will be no place for Nikki Haley in my administration. She offered herself as a surrogate on the campaign trail, and he never wanted that, even though people around him were concerned that he's not doing enough to reach out to women. There's no place for women in his circle if they go against him. I mean, that might be true for men and women alike, but she's out. She is no longer considered loyal. And we hear there's news this morning that he has appointed or he wants to appoint Elise Stefanik, the House representative from New York who's been a loyal Trump defender, to be U.N. ambassador.
INSKEEP: Oh, interesting, which is Haley's position. We should note NPR has not independently confirmed that, but CNN is reporting that.
KARNI: Yeah.
INSKEEP: Let me ask before we go about Susie Wiles, the new...
KARNI: Yeah.
INSKEEP: ...Chief of staff. What do you make of that appointment?
KARNI: This is a little different. First of all, this is the first time a woman in his West Wing has the top job. And she's someone who actually is seen as the obvious person to take this job. It's only a benefit to him that she's a woman. That will help look like he's promoting women. But this is just someone who, I think, detractors and supporters alike thinks are the - is the right person for this job.
INSKEEP: A professional who's been able to deal with them.
KARNI: Yeah.
INSKEEP: Annie Karni of The New York Times, thanks so much for your insights.
KARNI: Thank you.
INSKEEP: Take care. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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