LEILA FADEL, HOST:
In the first Trump administration, the so-called deep state became a kind of shorthand for anyone working to undermine the president. The Pentagon and the Department of Justice were frequent targets of those accusations. Trump and his supporters now say a second administration won't make the same mistake again. Anyone working against the White House will be weeded out, they say. What's more, Trump has talked about using both departments to exact a kind of retribution, raising concerns about the future of Democratic institutions. To talk more about what a second Trump administration could look like, we're joined by NPR's Carrie Johnson and Tom Bowman. Hi to you both.
TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Hey, Leila.
CARRIE JOHNSON, BYLINE: Hi there.
FADEL: Nice to be in person with you. So, Tom, let's start with you. You've covered the military for a long time and have spoken with a number of people about another Trump presidency. What are the concerns?
BOWMAN: Well, there are a number of concerns with people I talked with, both retired and still in the Pentagon. First of all, they say you may no longer have anyone who will stand up to Trump - like former generals Jim Mattis, who, of course, was defense secretary; John Kelly, who served as White House chief of staff - try to prevent Trump from this kind of knee-jerk reactions like, you know, immediately withdrawing troops from Syria, where ISIS was and still is a threat. And then Joint Chiefs Chairman Mark Milley had to explain to Trump why it was necessary to keep troops there. And it's important to note the U.S. recently took out some ISIS leaders in training camps, so, you know, things like that.
And then there's a concern in the second Trump administration you'll get just yes men now or try to politicize the military. Retired General Frank McKenzie said Trump's aides tried to do that last time in the final days of the administration. McKenzie writes that the Trump administration tried to retire some senior generals and admirals early and, quote, "put their officers in command." He calls it an over-politicization of the officer corps, and he wrote that no single thing could be more dangerous to the future of the U.S. military.
FADEL: So it sounds like a lot of concern that there will be no guardrails. And Trump said he's...
BOWMAN: Exactly.
FADEL: Yeah. Trump said he's considering using the military to remove millions of migrants that are here illegally or even to go after his perceived political enemies. What have your sources said about that?
BOWMAN: Right. Well, first of all, the practical concerns of removing millions. How do you do that?
FADEL: Yeah.
BOWMAN: Do you go to certain neighborhoods, job sites, ask for papers? And Trump said he'll use the National Guard and maybe the active duty military to support this effort in setting up these internment camps. One retired officer I spoke with said this could, in his words, break the military. Some service members, he said, you know, may decide not to take part, disobey orders. And there is a precedent here. Back in 1968, dozens of Black soldiers based in Texas refused orders to go to Chicago to take part in riot control for the Democratic convention. Many said they didn't want to have to engage Black citizens as hostile. And get this - most were court-martialed. So it's possible you could see something like that again. Another general told me as a young officer, he was ordered to Los Angeles in 1992 for crowd control during the Rodney King riots. He said, you know, we hated the fact that we had to do this in our own country. None of us wanted to be there.
JOHNSON: You know, Tom, that was actually the last time a president invoked the Insurrection Act to call up the military. George H. W. Bush did that at the request of the California governor, but it was still pretty controversial. And Donald Trump says he might invoke the Insurrection Act on his first day in office...
FADEL: Wow.
JOHNSON: ...Whether or not state officials want him to be involved.
BOWMAN: Another thing with the military, you know, you had Trump at times try to order the military to shoot protesters, unarmed protesters, which, of course, would be an illegal order. Soldiers would not have to obey that. Here's another thing, Leila. You know, there are some senior officers I know and have heard about who are nervous and - get this - actually considering retiring if Trump wins the presidency again.
FADEL: I mean, from the people that you're speaking to, it sounds like they're foreseeing quite a dark picture, and that doesn't even include the issues of foreign policy and all these wars between Ukraine and the Middle East. That must be a concern with the military, too, right?
BOWMAN: Absolutely. Trump will likely try to reduce U.S. troops in Europe or try to pull out of NATO altogether, stop funding Ukraine and bow to Putin. These are other concerns - or, again, try to pull troops out of Syria, where, again, ISIS is still a threat. With Trump, a lot of his concern is about money. Why are we spending so much? Why are we involved overseas? You would see a completely different mindset, more isolationists withdrawing from the world.
FADEL: Carrie, let's turn to the Justice Department. DOJ got kind of chaotic during the Trump years. Maybe an understatement. What might happen there if Trump wins in November?
JOHNSON: Well, the former president has already vowed to carry out what he calls retribution against the enemy within. And that means some of his political adversaries could face investigation by the Justice Department and the FBI. At different points during this campaign, Trump has called for Joe Biden to be investigated, for retired General Mark Milley to be investigated, for members of the House who investigated the Capitol riot to be investigated and for reporters and news organizations to be investigated.
And a Supreme Court decision from this past July gave Trump and future presidents sweeping immunity from prosecution for core acts they take as part of their office, including contacts with the Justice Department. So Donald Trump, this time around, might be even more unbridled than he was during his first term in office. The other development Trump has been mentioning on the campaign trail is possible pardons of many of the 1,500 people who were charged with crimes in connection with the siege on the Capitol on January 6, 2021. That could happen very soon.
FADEL: Now, the Biden Justice Department has brought two criminal cases against Trump himself. What will happen to those cases if Trump becomes president again?
JOHNSON: The most serious case against Trump is the federal election interference case here in Washington, D.C. The special counsel leading that case, Jack Smith, argues Trump was acting as a candidate for office, not the president, when Trump allegedly conspired to overturn the 2020 election. But Donald Trump's likely to direct his new Justice Department leaders to drop that case in D.C. and to refuse to proceed with an appeal in the other federal case against him involving classified papers he hoarded at Mar-a-Lago, his Florida resort. Remember, Judge Aileen Cannon, who was appointed to the bench by Trump...
FADEL: Right.
JOHNSON: ...Dismissed that case on the grounds the special counsel had been appointed in an unconstitutional way. The Justice Department right now is appealing. Trump would be able to end that appeal in its tracks.
FADEL: And, Carrie, finally, the former president has been saying some dark things on the campaign trail about law enforcement power generally. Can you break down what that all is and what it's about?
JOHNSON: Trump says he wants to give police more legal protection from being sued for things like using excessive force. And he said for years now that the death penalty should be carried out against drug dealers and other harsh penalties should be imposed on people who do things like steal from retail stores.
FADEL: Death penalty for stealing from retail stores?
JOHNSON: Well, he recently told a campaign audience police should be allowed to be, quote, "rough" on some of these thieves for just one hour, and the word would get out, and that behavior would stop. That kind of rhetoric from a former and possibly future president could motivate some law enforcement officers to break the rules and federal civil rights laws. That's worried a lot of people. You know, we do have some precedent for this. The head of the DEA during the Trump years actually resigned after Trump made a statement about not being careful when putting suspects in the back of police cars. What Trump has been saying this time around is much more harsh and much more dark.
FADEL: That's NPR's Carrie Johnson and Tom Bowman. Thank you both so much.
BOWMAN: You're welcome.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF TIM SCHAUFERT'S "JOURNEY") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
