LEILA FADEL, HOST:
Britain is considering sanctions on two far-right Israeli ministers who made what officials describe as abhorrent remarks. Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said starving some 2 million people in Gaza may be just and moral until hostages are returned. The national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, called Israeli settlers who killed a 19-year-old Palestinian in the West Bank heroes and backed protests to block aid convoys into Gaza. Here's British Prime Minister Keir Starmer answering a question in Parliament.
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PRIME MINISTER KEIR STARMER: We are looking at that because they're obviously abhorrent comments, along with other really concerning activity in the West Bank, but also across the region.
FADEL: To discuss, we're joined by Juan Zarate, a former assistant secretary of the treasury, now a managing partner at K2 Integrity, a financial risk consulting firm. Good morning and thanks for being on the program.
JUAN ZARATE: Good morning, Leila.
FADEL: So you have experience with sanctions in government and in your current role. Is it unusual to sanction officials in an allied government for really terrible things they've said?
ZARATE: It is. It's unusual to have an allied government threatening government ministers in this way, with sanctions. And I think it's unusual in a couple different ways. One, it reflects a breakdown of communication and diplomacy. These are issues that are usually handled in private or quietly through diplomatic channels. They're usually not threatened through sanctions. Obviously, the U.K. is trying to send a message and send a shot across the bow with respect to the potential policies that stem from these statements.
It's also unusual to have threatened sanctions for speech. Usually, what sanctions are targeted at are particular behaviors. For example, with settler violence and expansion, you've had the U.K., the U.S., Canada, other countries implement sanctions against individuals and groups that are engaged in those activities.
FADEL: Right.
ZARATE: And so it's unusual in a couple of ways. And certainly, at a time when Israel is at war, and when the U.S. and U.K., European Union are trying to apply sanctions against Iran and Hamas and Hezbollah, this becomes a challenging balance from the U.K. government in terms of what they're trying to achieve.
FADEL: Yeah, so you mentioned these earlier sanctions on settlers over violence in the West Bank. But how much would this threat be about the speech or actual policy? I mean, these remarks from Smotrich specifically, if implemented, that would be considered a war crime. And already, human rights groups like Human Rights Watch have accused Israel of using starvation as a weapon of war in Gaza already, something that Israel denies. But is it about what they've said, or is it about the way this war is being prosecuted?
ZARATE: I think what the British government is trying to do is send a message that the policy of starvation, the use of food as a weapon of war, obviously is unacceptable. And I think they're trying to indicate that ministers that are trying to promote or suggest that that is a policy that's acceptable for the Israeli government will be held to account, and certainly will be held to sanctions that demonstrate moral opprobrium for that kind of policy. Certainly, you've heard the U.S. talk about watching to see if Israeli actions follow those kinds of words. But here, I think you have political speech which is potentially the subject of sanctions from an allied government, which is very unusual.
FADEL: The two ministers have already dismissed the threat of sanctions as something that wouldn't matter. What would this move, if taken, actually accomplish?
ZARATE: Well, that's a great question because obviously, sanctions implemented, you want them to be effective. And you want them ultimately to change behavior or to deter activity. But sanctions can be used for lots of reasons. They can be political statements. They can be punitive and be intended to punish. Depending on what type of sanction - whether it's a travel ban, a financial, economic sanction, freezing of assets, diplomatic sanctions - they can restrict access and movement, ability to operate. Nobody likes to be sanctioned, despite the debate about whether or not sanctions work. Whether it's a government or an individual, or an organization, sanctions hurt, and they isolate the individual. In this case, though, the question is will these ministers - or would these ministers change their rhetoric? Would they change their policy, especially at a time when Israel is fighting for its survival? And that's in question here.
FADEL: And just in the few seconds we have left, what might it say about the future here? Does it open the door to additional sanctions if taken?
ZARATE: I think it does open the door for additional sanctions. It certainly opens the debate about what Israeli policy looks like, and it raises the question of how the U.K., the European Union, the U.S. will be using its sanctions authorities, not just with respect to settler activity, but with respect to aid to Gaza and Israeli policy - and how the U.S. and the U.K. balance that vis-a-vis sanctions on Iran and Hamas and Hezbollah, which have been ramped up as well.
FADEL: That's Juan Zarate, former assistant secretary of the treasury, now at K2 Integrity. Thank you so much, Juan.
ZARATE: Thank you, Leila. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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