DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. Eli Wallach already had played villains in Westerns before he appeared opposite Clint Eastwood as Tuco in "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly." Tuco was the ugly one and also was one of the toughest of the tough guys in the 1960 movie "The Magnificent Seven." Terry Gross spoke with Eli Wallach in 1990 and asked him how he got that part.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
ELI WALLACH: When I first read the script, I said, well, I want to play the crazy - it was based on the "Seven Samurai." I want to play the crazy samurai. Oh, no, they said. That's the love interest. Horst Buchholz is going to play it. What do you want me to play? They said, the head bandit.
I said, well, in the Japanese movie, you just see his horse's hoofs, and he's a man with an eye patch. I don't want to play that. Then I read the script carefully, and I come in - ride into town in the first minute of that movie, shoot somebody and ride out. The next 50 minutes of that movie are devoted to me, saying, is he coming back? When is he coming? I said, I'll do it. I'll do it. And I loved - I used to arrive on the set early in the morning, put on my outfit, get on my horse with my 35 bandits, and we'd go for an hour ride through the brush in Tepoztlan in Mexico. I loved it. I loved it.
TERRY GROSS: Did you have to learn gunplay and horse riding for the role?
WALLACH: No. If it says I shoot somebody, I shoot them. I'll never forget what my son said. Yul Brynner shot and killed me in this movie. And my son was about 7, and he said to me, gee, Dad, couldn't you outdraw Yul Brynner? I said, Peter, when you read the script, you read whether you're shot or not shot, so...
I love those kind of films. They're fun.
GROSS: Now, another famous Western that you did is "The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly."
WALLACH: Right.
GROSS: Now, this was - this is the most celebrated of the spaghetti Westerns.
WALLACH: Correct.
GROSS: And the director, Sergio Leone, is now considered one of the great directors of our time. He was not known, though, when you worked with him on "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly." Did you think of him as a great, or potentially great, director then?
WALLACH: No. I - when - I was making a film in California when the agent out there said, there's an Italian here who wants you to be in a movie. I said, what kind of movie? He said, a Western. I said - he said, a spaghetti Western. I said, that's an anomaly.
GROSS: (Laughter).
WALLACH: That's like Hawaiian pizza. I don't know. He said, he wants you to look at a few minutes of one of his other movies. And I looked at a few minutes, and I said, I'll do it. Where do you want me to go? He said, I want you in Rome on such-and-such a date. And I arrived, and I spent the next 4 1/2 months working every day in that movie. And it was a exhilarating experience.
GROSS: Well, now, what had he seen of yours?
WALLACH: Evidently, "The Magnificent Seven" - saw that. I don't know how - you never know how things happen in the movies.
GROSS: Did it seem ironic to you that you and Clint Eastwood, who had played in American Westerns, were now making a Western for an Italian director?
WALLACH: Originally, all those Italians changed their names. Two of the biggest stars in Italy are Terence Hill and Bud Spencer.
GROSS: (Laughter).
WALLACH: Their real names are Mario Girotti and Carlo Pedersoli, and they changed their names because no one wanted to go and see Italians playing Westerns. But I - after "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly," I spent about six years off and on in Italy, doing Westerns.
GROSS: You played a Mexican in "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly."
WALLACH: Yeah.
GROSS: So once again, you had to do a Mexican accent, but it was a light one. It was kind of...
WALLACH: Yes.
GROSS: ...Light Mexican accent. I want to play a short clip from the movie.
WALLACH: Oh.
GROSS: OK? And this is a scene - if anyone remembers the story, I'm sure a lot of our listeners do, you and Clint Eastwood have this scam going. There's a big price on your head,
WALLACH: Right.
GROSS: So Clint Eastwood brings you into the law. And just as they're about to hang you, he cuts you loose, and you both ride away, and you split the bounty.
WALLACH: Exactly.
GROSS: (Laughter) So you split the price that was on your head. So this is after the first time, when you're about to be hung, Clint Eastwood frees you, and you're splitting up the bounty.
WALLACH: Right.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY")
WALLACH: (As Tuco) There are two kinds of people in the world, my friend - those with a rope around their neck and the people who have the job of doing the cutting. Listen, the neck at the end of the rope is mine. I run the risks. So the next time, I want more than half.
CLINT EASTWOOD: (As Blondie) You may run the risks, my friend, but I do the cutting. We cut down my percentage - cigar? - liable to interfere with my aim.
WALLACH: (As Tuco) But if you miss, you had better miss very well. Whoever double-crosses me and leaves me alive, he understands nothing about Tuco (laughter). Nothing.
GROSS: Oh, that little sadistic laugh at the end (laughter).
WALLACH: But I don't think it's a very good Mexican accent. You know, it's standardized. It isn't - I didn't do the cliche of, (impersonating Mexican accent) I think maybe I do - you know, I don't...
I didn't do that. I wanted specifically to be clear in what I was saying.
GROSS: "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly" is really one of the most kind of brutal, sadistic Westerns, in a way.
WALLACH: No, it's done with tongue in cheek. It's not brutal.
GROSS: I know. I know. It is - I know there's a lot of humor in it, but what kind of mood did Leone - or Leone? I'm never sure which it is...
WALLACH: Leone.
GROSS: ...Tell you that he wanted?
WALLACH: One of the things he said to me, he said, I want every shot to be done like Vermeer. I want the light to come in from the side windows. And he said to me, I don't want you to have your gun in a holster. I said, where will I put it? He said, with a lanyard around your neck. I said, oh. And then it dangles between my knees, right?
GROSS: (Laughter).
WALLACH: He said, yeah. He said, when you want it, you twist your shoulders, and I cut, and the gun is in your hand. I said, show me. He put it around his neck. He twisted his shoulder. He missed the gun. It hit him in the groin. He said, keep it in your pocket. So that's...
GROSS: (Laughter) It's interesting that you became a kind of action hero when you were - what? - probably in your 50s already.
WALLACH: When? "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly?"
GROSS: And "The Magnificent Seven."
WALLACH: Yeah. I was - no, I was a little younger.
GROSS: No, you must have been in your 40s in "The Magnificent Seven."
WALLACH: Yeah. Yeah.
GROSS: But, you know, like, today, most action heroes are a lot younger. It's like, they start off in their 20s and 30s playing that...
WALLACH: Yeah.
GROSS: ...Kind of role.
WALLACH: Yeah.
GROSS: Did you feel like it was an odd match?
WALLACH: Well, you wear very tight pants in these movies.
GROSS: (Laughter).
WALLACH: And to get up on a horse, they'd always have to cut. I'd put my foot in the stirrup, but then they'd cut away to somebody looking at me.
GROSS: (Laughter).
WALLACH: And the next thing, I was on the horse. So no, I tell you...
GROSS: (Laughter).
WALLACH: ...In "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly," I did most of the stunts, and they were very dangerous. I was sitting on a horse with a noose around my neck, and Clint's supposed to shoot the rope. Then they put a little charge of dynamite in the rope, and it would explode, and then I would ride off on this horse.
I said, did you put any cotton in the horse's ears? They said, what do you mean, cotton in the horse's ears? I said, he can hear the explosion. He's going to be terrified. My hands are tied behind me. Well, they didn't do it. They shot the rope, and that horse took off. And I'm riding, not using reins, just using my knees, and praying that that horse would eventually stop. And eventually, he did, but it was frightening.
BIANCULLI: Actor Eli Wallach speaking with Terry Gross in 1990. He died in 2014. Coming up, we talk about the films of Italian director Sergio Leone, who bucked the traditional Hollywood Western for his own version. Also, what it's like to jump on the back of a galloping horse while it's pulling a stagecoach. We hear from stuntman Hal Needham. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF ENNIO MORRICONE'S "EL BUENO, EL FEO Y EL MALO") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
